| Efros
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| 487032. Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:42 pm |
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Aye Hamlet, he was ever one for beatin' around the bush!
I'll leave now... |
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| samivel
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| 487058. Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:20 pm |
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| Jenny wrote: | | Think also of Hamlet's reference to 'country matters', which some have claimed to be a reference to the c word. |
Not only that, but Middleton and Dekker's The Roaring Girl contains a memorable pun on the unconquered status of Kent when referring to a woman's purity. |
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| exnihilo
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| 487060. Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:37 pm |
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| Southpaw wrote: | | I can't see any situation where saying 'OSMOG!' is better than saying 'Oh, sweet mother of god!'. It just makes you sound like a right nerd. |
Thank you.
It was just part of the vernacular, we initialised a great many things, and used all manner of odd, invented words which we all understood perfectly but which would be meaningless to the unitiriated. I have no doubt that you will use slang expressions or constructions that I would find equally stupid. Such is the way of things. |
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| zomgmouse
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| 487074. Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:19 am |
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| Jenny wrote: | | Think also of Hamlet's reference to 'country matters', which some have claimed to be a reference to the c word. |
I believe it is, especially when spoken as "COUNT-ry matters"
Viz. Marvell and his coy mistress, the quaint could be a play on words. Another thing I've wondered: was Marvell from Birmingham? Because I don't see how try and virginity rhyme unless either try is pronounced tree or virginity pronounced virginit-eye, with a Birmingham accent (e.g. Jeremy Clarkson saying "Einstein's theor-eye of relativit-eye"). |
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| Southpaw
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| 487091. Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:34 am |
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| Quote: | | I have no doubt that you will use slang expressions or constructions that I would find equally stupid. Such is the way of things. |
Easy tiger, it was only a bit of light-hearted banter!
With reference to, ahem, C U Next Tuesday, my favourite related story, which I'm sure everyone knows, involves Mr Fry. Playing a radio game show where you had to come up with new definitions for words, and given 'countryside', his reply was 'the crime of murdering Piers Morgan.'
That, ladies and gennelman, is why he's a National Treasure.
Oh, and talking of FUBARs, here's a prime example. |
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| Celebaelin
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| 487114. Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:27 am |
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| zomgmouse wrote: | | Viz. Marvell |
*Imagines Stan Lee approving a series of spandex-clad Biffa Bacon comics. Tries very hard not to think about what super-powers Buster Gonad would have.* |
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| suze
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| 487407. Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:10 pm |
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| zomgmouse wrote: | | Another thing I've wondered: was Marvell from Birmingham? |
He was in fact from Hull. Jenny and others know a lot more about Hull English than I do, but I don't think the "Birmingham" pronunciation i.e. "virgini-tie" is usual there. (Any more than it would be in Birmingham!)
| zomg wrote: | | Because I don't see how try and virginity rhyme unless either try is pronounced tree or virginity pronounced virginit-eye. |
Quite a few English vowels have shifted since the days of Marvell - you can establish some of them by looking at rhymes in Shakespeare, as I had a class of students doing only this week.
But even in Marvell's time, "try" and "virginity" didn't rhyme. Poetry has always allowed a little bit of licence in rhymes, and note that William Blake did much the same in rhyming "eye" with "symmetry". (Blake was a Londoner, so he wouldn't have used the "Birmingham" pronunciation either.)
Last edited by suze on Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| Jenny
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| 487408. Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:11 pm |
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| zomgmouse wrote: | | Viz. Marvell and his coy mistress, the quaint could be a play on words. Another thing I've wondered: was Marvell from Birmingham? Because I don't see how try and virginity rhyme unless either try is pronounced tree or virginity pronounced virginit-eye, with a Birmingham accent (e.g. Jeremy Clarkson saying "Einstein's theor-eye of relativit-eye"). |
It's a half-rhyme - a commonly used poetic device. Think of Shakespeare and 'blow, blow thou winter wind/thou are not so unkind'. Marvell was from Hull, like me :-) |
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| Southpaw
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| 487411. Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:14 pm |
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One of the things I found interesting in Bryson's Made in America was the fact that in the late 17th century, 'kn', as in 'knee' or 'knock', had a hard k, so they would be pronounced 'kuh-nee', 'kuh-nock'.
Craziness! |
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| suze
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| 487427. Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:30 pm |
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The /k/ is still present in German - Knie (knee), for instance.
I think that its loss in English was slightly earlier than Bill Bryson suggests, but not by more than fifty years or so - so Shakespeare would have pronounced /kni:/, while Andrew Marvell perhaps had /ni:/. It was rather later in Scotland; some sources reckon that /kni:/ may still have been heard in some parts of Scotland as late as the First World War.
The dropping of /g/ in words such as "gnome" happened at about the same time, perhaps slightly earlier. (The word "gnu" is a special case; it came later. Although even there, one of my dictionaries alleges that some pronounce it "new" rather than "guh-noo". That sounds Attenborough-esque to me; I shall listen out should I happen to hear him talking about that creature.) |
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| zomgmouse
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| 487922. Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:16 pm |
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| I will have to agree that Marvell rhyming "try" and "virginity" does make more sense than T.S. Eliot rhyming "window-panes" with "window-panes". |
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| chukabuka
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| 503887. Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:57 am |
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| exnihilo wrote: | | Southpaw wrote: | | I can't see any situation where saying 'OSMOG!' is better than saying 'Oh, sweet mother of god!'. It just makes you sound like a right nerd. |
Thank you.
It was just part of the vernacular, we initialised a great many things, and used all manner of odd, invented words which we all understood perfectly but which would be meaningless to the unitiriated. I have no doubt that you will use slang expressions or constructions that I would find equally stupid. Such is the way of things. |
OSMOG maybe nay, but SMOGO O O O O O O O O ... maybe yea. |
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| chukabuka
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| 503901. Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:12 am |
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| suze wrote: | | zomgmouse wrote: | | Another thing I've wondered: was Marvell from Birmingham? |
He was in fact from Hull. Jenny and others know a lot more about Hull English than I do, but I don't think the "Birmingham" pronunciation i.e. "virgini-tie" is usual there. (Any more than it would be in Birmingham!)
| zomg wrote: | | Because I don't see how try and virginity rhyme unless either try is pronounced tree or virginity pronounced virginit-eye. |
Quite a few English vowels have shifted since the days of Marvell - you can establish some of them by looking at rhymes in Shakespeare, as I had a class of students doing only this week.
But even in Marvell's time, "try" and "virginity" didn't rhyme. Poetry has always allowed a little bit of licence in rhymes, and note that William Blake did much the same in rhyming "eye" with "symmetry". (Blake was a Londoner, so he wouldn't have used the "Birmingham" pronunciation either.) |
Interesting one that.
I always thought the letter Y was the grandmother of I in the English language.
Blake spelled Tyger, and thus sym me try is correct
Yts weird Yts weird
y know, y know,
Y trY to tie mY p. g .y
but me oh mi, eye sea ewe flie
Yt flapped yts wyngs ynto the skie.
'an me, me old cocksparrer,
Y'm orft fer a porkeepy
by bi |
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| chukabuka
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| 503918. Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:24 am |
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| Jenny wrote: | | zomgmouse wrote: | | Viz. Marvell and his coy mistress, the quaint could be a play on words. Another thing I've wondered: was Marvell from Birmingham? Because I don't see how try and virginity rhyme unless either try is pronounced tree or virginity pronounced virginit-eye, with a Birmingham accent (e.g. Jeremy Clarkson saying "Einstein's theor-eye of relativit-eye"). |
It's a half-rhyme - a commonly used poetic device. Think of Shakespeare and 'blow, blow thou winter wind/thou are not so unkind'. Marvell was from Hull, like me :-) |
I new a gy from 'ull
oo 'ad a crackin' scull
except for k, wych swam a wai
ees bote i' got qwyte full.
aharr me ol' mates.
Last edited by chukabuka on Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| chukabuka
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| 503921. Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:32 am |
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| Southpaw wrote: | One of the things I found interesting in Bryson's Made in America was the fact that in the late 17th century, 'kn', as in 'knee' or 'knock', had a hard k, so they would be pronounced 'kuh-nee', 'kuh-nock'.
Craziness! |
The maid Cray Zee, she 'ad one nee,
(the udder wasn't there).
No matter how hard she tugged dose tings
All she got were air.
Mottoe:
Never let yer dingledongledangle in the dert,
always keeps yer dingledongle underneef yer shert. |
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