| costean
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| 121097. Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:00 pm |
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Which boy from Rugby School invented an internationally popular ball game in the 19th Century?
William Webb Ellis?
| Quote: | THIS STONE COMMEMORATES THE EXPLOIT OF WILLIAM WEBB ELLIS WHO WITH A FINE DISREGARD FOR THE RULES OF FOOTBALL AS PLAYED IN HIS TIME FIRST TOOK THE BALL IN HIS ARMS AND RAN WITH IT THUS ORIGINATING THE DISTINCTIVE FEATURE OF THE RUGBY GAME
A.D. 1823 |
Thus reads the plaque on the Doctor’s Wall* at Rugby School. The trophy for the Rugby World Cup is called The William Webb Ellis Trophy. There is a statue in the town of Rugby commemorating (a particularly heroic looking) Ellis**. And we have all heard the story of how William Webb Ellis came to found the game of Rugby Football.
Still convinced? I’m afraid not. Klaxon time.
It is a myth. Plaques, trophies and statues notwithstanding, Ellis was not responsible for inventing the game of Rugby Football or even for devising its most distinctive feature.
I am not suggesting that he did not exist or should not be remembered***. And I am certainly not suggesting that the game did not evolve at Rugby School; it did. It is simply that in this instance, (and indeed like many others), a good story is always more popular than the (comparatively dull) truth. It is true that Ellis was educated at Rugby (1816-1825) and was noted as a good cricketer. He then disappeared from the sporting limelight until his name was mentioned as ‘the originator’ of the game in 1880. This was in a letter to the Times by Matthew Bloxham an old boy of the school and it is the first recorded instance of Ellis’ name being mentioned in connection with the game – some 57 years later - and it was an account of what someone else witnessed. It is the only evidence upon which the story is based.
The game itself certainly did start at Rugby School, evolving from the chaotic, all-in rumble of the eighteenth century to the civilised, codified spectacle we know today (or have I got that the wrong way round?). The first Laws of [Rugby] Football were drawn up at the school in 1845. This gives a full history of the origins of the game.
The answer is actually Tom Wills – Australian Rules Football
Tom Wills an Australian by birth, was sent to England in the 1840s and was educated at Rugby School. He proved to be an outstanding all-round sportsman, being a particularly fine cricketer and when he returned to Australia was one of the finest cricketers in Victoria. It was there that, for want of a game to keep cricketers fit during the winter, he came up with idea of Australian Rules Football. It is possible that his thinking could have been influenced by an aboriginal game he may have seen in his youth, but the unique characteristics and rules/laws of Aussie Rules were set out by a panel chaired by Wills in 1858. They have changed little to this day. See The Origins of Australian Rules Football
| Quote: | | Tom Wills began to devise Australian rules in Melbourne in 1858. A letter by Wills was published in Bell's Life in Victoria & Sporting Chronicle on 10 July 1858, calling for a "foot-ball club" with a "code of laws" to keep cricketers fit during winter.[1] An experimental match, played by Wills and others, at the Richmond Paddock (later known as Yarra Park next to the MCG) on 31 July, 1858, was probably the first game of Australian football. However, few details of the match have survived. |
Letter from Tom Wills to Bell's Life in Victoria & Sporting Chronicle
| Quote: | | Sir - Now that cricket has been put aside for some months to come, and cricketers have assumed somewhat of the chrysalis nature (for a time only 'tis sure), but at length will burst forth in all their varied hues, rather than allow this state of torpor to creep over them, and stifle their now supple limbs, why can they not, I say, form a foot-ball club, and form a committee of three or more to draw up a code of laws? If a club of this sort were got up, it would be of vast benefit to any cricket ground to be trampled upon, and would make the turf quite firm and durable; besides which, it would keep those who are inclined to become stout from having joints encased in useless superabundant flesh. |
The epitaph on his grave stone succinctly describes him as 'Founder of Australian Football and Champion Cricketer of his time'.
The William Webb Ellis story has been known to be a myth since it was first investigated by the Old Rugbeian Society (renamed the Rugbeian Society) in 1895. Rugby School, for obvious reasons, are perfectly happy to let this particular myth stay the course. Tom Wills appears to have been, if not forgotten, then at best marginalised in this country. But I believe that, in the world of QI at least, he should once more take his rightful place on the stage. Not centre stage, obviously, (he’s Australian and, as I write, they are 650 ahead in the first test), but stage-left-ish, towards the back… back a bit more… go on… bit further… But on the stage nonetheless.
*Named after Doctor Thomas Arnold (wiki) (See Tom Brown’s Schooldays)
** 
***In fact Ellis has received possibly the greatest accolade that can be bestowed by the English; they have named a pub after him, an honour normally reserved for only those worthy of particular reverence, such as trees, racehorses and highwaymen. Monarchs do get a mention in this category but normally only in respect of their heads or mistresses.
Note (and convenient disclaimer)
The use of the word ‘Internationally’ in the question is also valid. Apart from being arguably the number one sport in Australia, it is also the most popular in Papua New Guinea and Nauru. Somewhat serendipitously the question of the popularity of Aussie Rules cropped up in the QI weekly quiz on 10th Nov. See Q9, (an excellent reason for trying these superbly thought-up QI weekly quizzes). And if anyone has any quibbles over this particular part please go straight to eggshaped (and leave me out it).
Sources:
As Above
wiki - William Webb Ellis
wiki - History of Aussie Rules
Tom Wills
AFL History
Last edited by costean on Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| gerontius grumpus
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| 121136. Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:39 pm |
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| It would appear that picking up the ball and running with it occurs in most types of football and association football is quite unusual in making the handling of the ball illegal. |
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| Flash
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| 121143. Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:18 pm |
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It seems that the notion of running with the ball was established at Rugby by 1830 at the latest, so if Wills "began to devise" Aussie Rules in 1858 then that doesn't account for the innovation, does it? I've only had a quick look at the sources indicated, but it looks to me as though the Webb Ellis story is dubious (second-hand at best), which is good General Ignorance, but that there isn't really a 'right' answer to offer in its place.
Tell me what I've missed. |
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| costean
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| 121185. Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:52 am |
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| Flash wrote: | | Tell me what I've missed. |
In short, nothing. I was trying to make two points. One, the story about Ellis is a myth. And two, that the originator of another popular ball game was educated there during the same period. There is a certain amount of ambiguity in the question. Perhaps it should have read 'Who was the originator of a popular ball game who was educated at Rugby School in the nineteenth century?'. |
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| Tas
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| 121193. Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:12 am |
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I'd just like to point out that Aussie Rules in nowhere near the same to either code of Rugby (ie Union or League). It closely resembles Gaelic Football, so much so that I belive there is a trophy where each half is played with the rules to each game being used (one half is AR, the other GF). Rugby Union/League do the same thing every so oftern.
(Disclaimer: This post is subject to lapses in memory).
:-)
Tas |
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| 96aelw
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| 121365. Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:02 pm |
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| Only a slight lapse, sir. Ireland and Australia, bored of their inability to field international teams in Gaelic or Aussie Rules football due to the lack of any opposition, came up with a brand new shiny set of rules for a brand new shiny game that is a bit like both. It is called International Rules Football. Although I think that a different set of rules for each half would be more fun. Similarly, I believe that Scotland and Ireland have devised a halfway house between shinty and hurling, which enables the other Gaelic sports types to have an international match, too. Not sure what that one's called, though. |
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| costean
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| Tas
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| 121557. Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:26 am |
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Thanks for the correction there, 96. :-)
The point I was trying to make is that ARF is nowt like Rugby of either code, aside from the shape of the ball. As we were looking at the origins of RU, I was not too sure what ARF had to do with it. That said, the ARF bits and pieces mentioned are a little QI.
:-)
Tas |
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| costean
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| 121560. Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:43 am |
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| Tas - the original question was one I set in the quiz on Friday evening. As I mentioned in my (attempted) clarifying post 121185, the question could have been better worded. The two points I am making are, the myth about Ellis and the fact that the originator of Aussie Rules was educated at Rugby as well. So the School can lay a sort of (vague) claim to having had a hand in that one as well (not that they do!). This is not strictly relevant to the Ellis part, but it seems to be little known and qi. |
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| Tas
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| 121562. Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:59 am |
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I stand....well laze, actually...corrected.
:-)
Tas |
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| The Super
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| 121775. Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:21 am |
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Lies lies lies.
From someone who has been an afficionado of the sport for many years and one who has, indeed, been forced to tramp round Rugby and the WWE museum, I can happily say it WAS mr Ellis who "started" it all.
He didn't write the rule book, but Rugby school did after his little excursion with the ball in his hands.
The school that played against them in the match he did it in called it "Playing Rugby" as in cheating (the school was famous for it back then)
As for it being an Aussie, well that can't be right. They invented Aussie rules, not Rugby.
The game of Rugby, rules and laws, was actually written by the master who was refereeing the match in which Webb-Ellis cheated and the event is written in his diary from the day of the game.
He then went on to actually get together with the other masters of the school and wrote the rules.
So there. |
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| Flash
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| 121818. Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:23 am |
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| Does that diary still exist, Super? The sources posted earlier don't seem to mention it (unless I missed something). |
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| costean
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| 121842. Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:23 am |
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| The Super wrote: | Lies lies lies.
From someone who has been an aficionado of the sport for many years and one who has, indeed, been forced to tramp round Rugby and the WWE museum, I can happily say it WAS mr Ellis who "started" it all. . |
Thank you for your contribution to this particular debate. Let’s deal with all these points.
| The Super wrote: | | Quote: | | He didn't write the rule book, but Rugby school did after his little excursion with the ball in his hands. |
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The laws were drawn up by senior boys some 20 odd years later.
| Quote: | | The work to draw up the first rules of Rugby football started on 25 August 1845 and ended on 28th August. The work was done by three senior pupils at Rugby School after they received instructions to codify the game of Football. |
See sources in post 121097 and post 121456
| The Super wrote: | | Quote: | | The school that played against them in the match he did it in called it "Playing Rugby" as in cheating (the school was famous for it back then) |
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At the time, (Ellis was at the school in the early 1820’s), the Rugby School version of football was not played against other schools. Indeed inter-school matches of any description did not become possible until the expansion of the railway system in the 1840’s
| The Super wrote: | | Quote: | | As for it being an Aussie, well that can't be right. They invented Aussie rules, not Rugby. . |
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I did not suggest that Tom Wills (who was Australian) had anything to do with the creation of Rugby Football. I was merely pointing out that the creator of Australian Rules Football (Wills) happened to be educated at the same school during the same period; a fact that appears to be little known and qi.
| The Super wrote: | | Quote: | | The game of Rugby, rules and laws, was actually written by the master who was refereeing the match in which Webb-Ellis cheated and the event is written in his diary from the day of the game. |
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They weren’t (see above). Masters did not referee the game in those days. Any dispute over rules was settled by the senior boys from both sides. For a good description of a game of Rugby Football as played in the 1830’s see ’Tom Brown’s Schooldays – Thomas Hughes’, a book, while presented as a novel, was based on the author’s own experiences at Rugby School at that time.
And if such a diary does exist I should be most interested to see it. Please publish the source.
| The Super wrote: | | Quote: | | He then went on to actually get together with the other masters of the school and wrote the rules. |
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Again see above.
See above. |
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| legspin
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| 131079. Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:10 pm |
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There is a story that Webb Eliss actually picked up on the carried ball from spending time on his father' Irish plantation in Tipperary when he was a boy. The local Irish were playing a game that involed the carrying of tye ball and when he went to school he remembered this game.
Of course this just is probably a myth originated by some Irish bloke to get around the ban there was on GAA players playing or watching 'foreign sports' |
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| costean
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| 131083. Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:37 pm |
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The wiki article on Webb Ellis mentions this (among others) as a possibility. Do you have any other sources Legspin?
I have discovered another source which discusses the whole business in detail.
William Webb Ellis |
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