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Flash Lingo

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jonp
203525.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:35 am Reply with quote

Rats, Mark beat me to it with news of the 2007 release!

 
Tas
203527.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:40 am Reply with quote

According to IMDB.com all original music was composed by Malcolm Arnold, CBE, for The Belles Of St Trinians, this being the first film in the series.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002185/bio

:-)

Tas

 
mckeonj
203528.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:42 am Reply with quote

No, No, please, No!!!!!

Although I have just entertained the thought of Mr Stephen Fry as the headmistress, originally Alistair Sim, and Ronnie Ancona as Joyce Grenfell.

 
markvent
203556.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:26 am Reply with quote

I think a QI bit of Flash Lingo is

"Poney" meaning money, this seems to have come from the first two words of the fifth division of Psalm 119, "Legem Pone" [put the law] which begins the psalms at Matins on the 25th of the month; consequently associated with March 25, a quarter day in the old financial calendar, when payments and debts came due.

And so today "poney" or "pony" is 25 (again the asscoiation with the 25th)

Mark.

 
jonp
203558.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:36 am Reply with quote

My sainted old dad would always talk about a poney (although I don't think either of us thought it was spelled that way). I wondered about the origin, and that's the first explanation that I've seen.

Okay, what about "monkey" (500 for non-Brits). Are there any ideas on the origin?

PS - this is a good site for slang money terms, although as it clearly states, some of it is unverified.

 
dr.bob
203559.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:40 am Reply with quote

markvent wrote:
"Poney" meaning money, this seems to have come from the first two words of the fifth division of Psalm 119, "Legem Pone"


That's one theory. There are many others mentioned on this website including:

* It is suggested that it derives from the typical price paid for a small horse, but in those times 25 would have been an unusually high price for a pony.

* an Indian twenty-five rupee banknote featured a pony.

* the Old German word 'poniren' meaning to pay

As with most things etymological, the truth is probably lost to the mists of time. However, I like the rupee of Old German explanations best. The "Legem Pone" explanation sounds far too convoluted.

Edit: in reply to jonp's question, the same site says the origins of the term "monkey" are unknown, but suggests a similar rupee explanation.

 
jonp
203567.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:54 am Reply with quote

Thanks dr.bob; I like the 25 rupee banknote story.
Goes off to have a look

 
markvent
203572.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:08 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
markvent wrote:
"Poney" meaning money, this seems to have come from the first two words of the fifth division of Psalm 119, "Legem Pone"


That's one theory. There are many others mentioned on this website including:

* It is suggested that it derives from the typical price paid for a small horse, but in those times 25 would have been an unusually high price for a pony.

* an Indian twenty-five rupee banknote featured a pony.

* the Old German word 'poniren' meaning to pay

As with most things etymological, the truth is probably lost to the mists of time. However, I like the rupee of Old German explanations best. The "Legem Pone" explanation sounds far too convoluted.

Edit: in reply to jonp's question, the same site says the origins of the term "monkey" are unknown, but suggests a similar rupee explanation.


I can find no instance of the 25 rupee note showing a pony, or the 500 rupee note showning a monkey plus both phrases have been around long before the Raj.

The phrase could possibly have been adopted into Cant from "poniren" but doesn't feel right to me. Why lose the -ren ?

I don't find the "Legem Pone" theory any more convoluted than the uttering of an Old German word or referring to bank notes not yet printed on another continent that don't show the pictures that are supposedly referred to ?

As for the it being the "price of a pony" ... 25 was a great deal of money and a 25 or 25 Guinea horse would have been inordinately expensive. That one sounds like a load of old pony to me ...

as regards my original post, and the use of "Legem Pone" to mean payment, if I may quote from Thomas Wright's "Dictionary of Obsolete & Provincial English" (1857)
Quote:
"LEGEM PONE. An old popular term for ready money.

use legem pone to pay at they day,
but use not oremus for often delay.
Tusser,Husb.

but in this, here is nothing to bee
abated, all their speech is legem pone,
or else with their ill custome they will
detaine thee.
G. Minshul, Essayes in Prison."

and

"LEGGE. v. To lay; to lay a wager"

now the quote from Thomas Tusser's "5 Points Of Good Husbandry" is interesting as it was published in 1557.

Now the same etymology of "Pony" is given in The Gentlemans Magazine of 1822. Admittedly none of this is proof of anything much more than that this etymology of "pony" has been used for a long time, however as you say these are theories and the mists of time have veiled the real origins but I find the "legem pone" theory more belivable than any other.

Mark.


Last edited by markvent on Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total

 
dr.bob
203596.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:24 am Reply with quote

markvent wrote:
the 25 rupee note doesn't show, nor ever has shown a pony, just like the 500 rupee note doesn't show, nor ever has shown a monkey plus both phrases have been around long before Britains involvement with India.


Of course, there's the possibility that it wasn't a note, but a coin. Coins generally have some kind of design on them, right? Given that the first Indian rupees were believed to have been produced in the 15th or 16th century, and British involvement with trade to India began in the 16th century, I think it'll be hard to disprove this link entirely. I certainly can't find any historical archive of rupee designs going back that far.

markvent wrote:
possibly adopted into the cant from poniren but doesn't feel right to me. Why lose the -ren ?


Why not? Words often change by losing bits when transferring from one language to another, don't they?

markvent wrote:
as for the "legem pone" how exactly is it convoluted ?


OK, I'll grant you that there's quite a lot of evidence pointing to the association of legem pone with getting paid on the 25th March. That seems a fairly strong explanation for the association of the word "pony" with money generally, or with the verb "pony" as in "to pony up."

I think it was the suggestion that March 25th lead to a pony being 25 that struck me as a bit convenient, though I could be wrong.

markvent wrote:
oh and as for the "price of a pony" ... what a load of old pony ...


Yeah, have to agree with you there.

markvent wrote:
however as you say these are theories and the mists of time have veiled the real origins


Indeed. By this stage, a lot of it is just guesswork

markvent wrote:
but I find the "legem pone" theory more belivable than any other.


Fair enough.

 
markvent
203598.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:35 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Of course, there's the possibility that it wasn't a note, but a coin. Coins generally have some kind of design on them, right? Given that the first Indian rupees were believed to have been produced in the 15th or 16th century, and British involvement with trade to India began in the 16th century, I think it'll be hard to disprove this link entirely. I certainly can't find any historical archive of rupee designs going back that far.


No admittedly I dont have anything on that but I'll check with Numismatist friends :)

dr_bob wrote:
Why not? Words often change by losing bits when transferring from one language to another, don't they?

True - but as I say this one doesnt feel right to me .. nothing more scientific than that I'm afraid...
dr_bob wrote:
I think it was the suggestion that March 25th lead to a pony being 25 that struck me as a bit convenient, though I could be wrong.
Ah OK .. yes .. well as you'll see I've edited my post (mainly as it seemed to come across as quite aggressive/confrontational whcih wasn't my intent .. sorry to dr_bob if it came across that way! .. and also to add some sources for "legem pone" meaning payment.
dr_bob wrote:
markvent wrote:
oh and as for the "price of a pony" ... what a load of old pony ...

Yeah, have to agree with you there..
like saying "1million" is called a "motor" because its the price of a car ;)

Mark.

 
dr.bob
203600.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:46 am Reply with quote

markvent wrote:
(mainly as it seemed to come across as quite aggressive/confrontational whcih wasn't my intent .. sorry to dr_bob if it came across that way!


No need to apologise. Not only did it not feel to me as though it was either aggressive or confrontational, I'm probably the last person you need to apologise to about being confrontational ;-)

 
mckeonj
203701.  Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:27 pm Reply with quote

Another QI bit of slang or lingo is the nicknames associated with certain surnames:
- Pony Moore
- Nobby Clarke
- Pincher Martin*
are some I remember. They seem to have their origins in the Army and Navy, and to be almost invariable.
I suspect that they refer back to certain individuals in past history.
Any ideas?

*"Pincher Martin" is the title of a book by William Golding; it is the name of the central character, who is a sailor.

 
Jenny
203881.  Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:05 pm Reply with quote

Mckeonj - there were also 'Dusty' Miller and 'Chalky' White. My dad's surname was Brown, and he was always called 'Bruin' when he was in the army during WW2.

 
mckeonj
203897.  Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:47 pm Reply with quote

Jenny, you might like to know that the Royal Navy referred to the Army as 'Brown jobs' when carrying them on troopships.

 
Jenny
203953.  Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:49 pm Reply with quote

Ha! I didn't know that :-)

 

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