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178806.  Tue May 29, 2007 11:04 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
I said that you would deserve one, not that you would get one...

But seeing as how it's you, have a plaudit or two (or several, since I can't find anything more interesting about Luton Town than the fact that Monty Panesar supports them).

Not to forget the late great Eric Morecambe who was also a director ..

despite his constant references to a certain London club in his comedy ..



178828.  Tue May 29, 2007 12:10 pm Reply with quote

William Henry Foulke; the person who was the original answer to the question "who ate all the pies?".

178948.  Wed May 30, 2007 3:47 am Reply with quote

Last year, Albion Rovers sacked their centre forward (Mark Yardley, I think), because he couldn't keep his weight under 20 stones. A few pies gone missing there, I think.

178984.  Wed May 30, 2007 5:18 am Reply with quote

West Ham have the odd notable fact about them- they were the last team to win the FA Cup with a team consisting entirely of players born in Britain

179027.  Wed May 30, 2007 7:44 am Reply with quote

I'm not sure about that one - I can't think of a non-British born player in the Everton side who won the F.A. Cup in 1984. Or in the Manchester United side that won in 1990.

179048.  Wed May 30, 2007 8:23 am Reply with quote


Manchester United
(Robson, Hughes 2)
Leighton, Ince, Martin (Blackmore), Bruce Phelan , Pallister (Robins), Robson, Webb, McClair, Hughes, Wallace

Crystal Palace
(O'Reilly, Wright 2)
Martyn, Pemberton, Shaw, Gray (Madden), O'Reilly, Thorn, Barber (Wright), Thomas, Bright, Salako, Pardew

Referee: A Gunn
Attendance: 80,000
Replay - Wembley - Thursday 17th May
Manchester United 1 Crystal Palace 0


Wembley - Saturday 19th May

Everton 2 Watford 0
(Sharp, Gray)
Southall, Stevens, Bailey, Ratcliffe, Mountfield, Reid, Steven, Heath, Sharp, Gray, Richardson

Sherwood, Bardsley, Price (Atkinson), Taylor, Terry, Sinnott, Callaghan, Johnston, Reilly, Jackett, Barnes

Referee: J Hunting
Attendance: 100,000




179068.  Wed May 30, 2007 8:58 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
AlmondFacialBar wrote:
anyone know any others?

Canadian Football comes at once to mind.

It's similar to American Football, but with one more player per team and an extra way of scoring called a single. Rather a minority sport even in Canada - (ice) hockey is of course the sporting passion, and I suppose baseball would be second, but association football and rugby union would run Canadian Football close for third.

I'd put CFL ahead of baseball. Also the CFL field is 110yds. long as opposed to 100 yds. for NFL. There's no fair catch rule either.

Other football games must include 'golf football'. You kick a football instead of hitting a golf ball. Hitting the flag stick counts as the hole. Best played after hours and after dark.

179075.  Wed May 30, 2007 9:10 am Reply with quote

Taken from 'The Guardian'.

"Why is Celtic pronounced Seltic rather than Keltic, as it is in every other context?" asked Sam Easterbrook in 2004.

A tricky one this. Ed Mortimer started us off. "The answer is simple," he said. "We are wrong to pronounce the work Keltic. It's one of those words where the pronunciation has changed for some reason in one context but not in others. Following the general rule that 'c' followed by 'e' or 'i' is pronounced as an 's', we have Seltik, as in the football club. The same pronunciation used to apply to the adjective describing the ancient inhabitants of the western fringes of Europe, including parts of modern-day Scotland, England, Ireland, Wales, France and Spain. The 's' pronunciation still applies in French, Breton and Galician - but for some reason English has changed to the keltic variant. Put simply, the football club pronunciation is the right one."

Graeme Gardiner offered an alternative view. "Celtic were founded in 1888 to benefit the Irish immigrant population of Glasgow's east end. The name Celtic was chosen to reflect the common roots of the Scots and Irish, who were on the receiving end of considerable sectarian prejudice. Unfortunately the name wasn't used much outside academic circles and was simply mispronounced by the local population. Of course the de facto pronunciation among the faithful is Sellick."

However, the truth, if it is to be had, seemed to be that both pronunciations are ostensibly correct, with Keltic having become the more accepted usage only in the last 30 years. Celtic, having been formed in the last century, naturally retained the Seltic pronunciation.

This from the Medieval Scotland website, which a number of readers kindly pointed out: "The reason the Boston Celtics and Glasgow Celtic and all those other sports teams founded around 1900 (give or take a couple decades) pronounce their names Seltic is not because they were founded by ignorant folk who didn't know any better, but because they spoke English and did know the proper pronunciation of the English word 'Celtic'.

"So what happened? Well, any number of things might explain why the in-crowd pronunciation shifted to Keltic (such as the German influence on Celtic studies, which was strong in the 19th- and early 20th-centuries) but the upshot is that it is now fashionable - almost obligatory - in certain circles to pronounce the word with a K sound rather than the original S sound. In fact, in certain circles (both in and out of academia) it is something of a litmus test - if you don't use the K sound, it will be assumed you are not knowledgeable about things Celtic. But the one and only reason Keltic is now one of the correct pronunciations of the word is because that is how many educated people pronounce it. That is the only logic in the Keltic pronunciation's favour. The standard rules of English, the rules of language, long use and practice, all argue in favour of Seltic, not Keltic. But it still remains that Seltic is a long-established, traditional pronunciation of the word in English. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pronouncing Celtic as Seltic."

So basically, it was all the fault of some toffs, and everybody was right

179121.  Wed May 30, 2007 11:26 am Reply with quote

Not so, I fear. I'm afraid that the Medieval Scotland website is talking, to an extent at least, out of its cyber arse, and Ed Mortimer is talking more or less complete tosh.

We are wrong to pronounce the work Keltic

Based on the best evidence we have, no we aren't. Seltic is, from a historical perspective, unmistakably wrong, and Keltic definitely right. A quick glance at the first uses of the word and its cognates, by Greek authors such as Herodotus, reveals that the name for the people was originally spelled (when first written down; the people themselves (whoever they were, but that's a whole different can of worms)were non-literate) Keltoi. In fact, to be precise, it was spelled Κελτοι, but the point is that the intial letter is pronounced as a 'k', not an 's'. If Seltic were the original pronunciation, Herodotus would have written Seltoi (or Σελτοι).

The original S sound

is therefore indubitably a K sound. To say, then, that
the only logic in the Keltic pronunciation's favour
is common usage is just plain wrong. I would have expected better from both them and the Guardian, frankly.

The standard rules of English, the rules of language, long use and practice, all argue in favour of Seltic, not Keltic

This, at least, is true. Seltic was the dominant pronunciation for a long time, and the point about the standard rules of English (and possibly French influence) probably goes at least some way to explaining why the pronunciation shifted from Keltic to Seltic in the first place. But the fact remains that that is the shift that needs explaining, not the change from Seltic to Keltic, which is due not to German influence, but to a proper study of the evidence. Of course, there's every chance that the Greek authors got the name anywhere between vaguely and astonishingly wrong, and Seltic may be closer to the pronunciation used by the people who would have considered themselves to be described by that term. As may "Finglewarp". But on the basis of the evidence we have, Keltic is the only historically defensible pronunciation.

So basically, everybody, toffs included, was wrong for centuries, until some people finally noticed. All of which, of course, needn't affect how anybody pronounces the footballl team.

179128.  Wed May 30, 2007 11:42 am Reply with quote

eyeqew wrote:
I'd put CFL ahead of baseball.

In terms of participants, the top five in 1998 (statcan hasn't produced figures since) were golf, hockey, baseball, swimming and basketball.

But I was - and I think you were - really talking about viewer numbers. These are proving tricky to pin down, and not all of them see to be published.

All the same, I'm prepared to accept that CFL might be #2 in Ontario. But then CFL games are broadcast on TSN, which we out west rarely watch since it doesn't seem to know that Canada actually has any cities other than Toronto. Out in BC, I'd reckon that there's more interest in Seattle Mariners games on Sportsnet Pacific than in CFL.

In terms of people who actually go to the games, it's difficult to compare since we don't have a baseball team in Vancouver. Yes, the BC Lions is a well supported team, but if the Vancouver Whitecaps (soccer) had as large of a stadium, it would get the same kind of numbers.

179152.  Wed May 30, 2007 12:51 pm Reply with quote

samivel wrote:
I'm not sure about that one - I can't think of a non-British born player in the Everton side who won the F.A. Cup in 1984. Or in the Manchester United side that won in 1990.

I reckon it's that Manchester United team from 1990. The team in the first match was Jim Leighton [born Scotland], Paul Ince [Essex], Lee Martin [Cheshire] (Clayton Blackmore [Wales]), Steve Bruce [Northumberland], Mike Phelan [Lancashire], Gary Pallister [Kent] (Mark Robins [Lancashire]), Bryan Robson [Durham], Neil Webb [Berkshire], Brian McClair [Scotland], Mark Hughes [Wales] and Danny Wallace [London].

There was one change in the replay, when Les Sealey [London] played in goal. I think he may also be the most recent player to have appeared in the FA Cup final who is deceased.

That final wasn't all British-born though. Much as John Salako of Crystal Palace played for England, he was born in Nigeria.

179158.  Wed May 30, 2007 1:13 pm Reply with quote

I misread that as saying that Les Sealey had played in the Cup final whilst dead. That would have been some achievement.

Fat Cat
188069.  Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:00 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
hull city


It works in both upper and lower case.

Although you should probably specify a league team, or there'll doubtless be some other team out there playing in some very obscure division.

Just out of interest, did you get this from the James O'Farrell book 'The Best a Man Can Get' ? Also including the gem; St John's Wood is the only station on the London Underground not to have a letter from the word MACKEREL in it.

188070.  Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:11 am Reply with quote

No, I picked it up on these very forums. I believe this factoid, along with the St John's Wood one, is one of those things that is well known to those who know it well.

Ian Dunn
188123.  Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:44 am Reply with quote

Here is something quite interesting about players being sent off.

The Observer wrote:
Lee Todd, a striker for Sunday league team Cross Farm Park Celtic, is reputed to hold the record for the quickest dismissal. At the start of a game, the referee blew his whistle, stridently. Todd exclaimed: 'Fuck me, that was loud!' And was sent off, after two seconds.

Full article


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