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jaygeemack
177914.  Fri May 25, 2007 8:51 am Reply with quote

What was significant about the Airdrieonians v. Nottingham Forest Texaco cup tie in September 1971? (I was there!)

 
markvent
177916.  Fri May 25, 2007 8:58 am Reply with quote

well I remember the Forest being involved in a cup tie that resulted in a draw in each leg (2-2 and 4-4 I think) .. was that it ?

Mark.

 
suze
177917.  Fri May 25, 2007 8:58 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
anyone know any others?


Canadian Football comes at once to mind.

It's similar to American Football, but with one more player per team and an extra way of scoring called a single. Rather a minority sport even in Canada - (ice) hockey is of course the sporting passion, and I suppose baseball would be second, but association football and rugby union would run Canadian Football close for third.

 
jaygeemack
177919.  Fri May 25, 2007 8:59 am Reply with quote

markvent wrote:
well I remember the Forest being involved in a cup tie that resulted in a draw in each leg (2-2 and 4-4 I think) .. was that it ?

Mark.


Nope!

 
jaygeemack
177922.  Fri May 25, 2007 9:12 am Reply with quote

I have just discovered that I have been contradicted by Google, so I'll come clean about the answer.

I was under the impression ( and so are some other sources ) that this Texaco Cup tie was the world's first penalty shoot-out, but apparently the Hull City v. Man Utd Watney Cup tie in 1970 was decided on penalties.

I stand corrected. I didn't witness history in the making.

 
suze
177924.  Fri May 25, 2007 9:17 am Reply with quote

jaygeemack wrote:
What was significant about the Airdrieonians v. Nottingham Forest Texaco cup tie in September 1971? (I was there!)


One thing I've been able to discover about that tie is that Airdrieonians won 5-4 on penalties after both legs had been 2-2 draws.

That might lead me to speculate that it was the first game to be decided on penalties, except that the link I posted yesterday knows otherwise. The first international to be decided in this way appears to have been an amateur international between Bolivia and Venezuela in December 1965 - it was a playoff for second place in the mighty Bolivarian Games, and Venezuela won the shootout 2-1 after a 2-2 draw.

There may well have been club matches decided in this way earlier (a way of saying that I think I know of one, and might post the details if I can remember where I found it).

Anyways, so it's not that.

EDIT: The post above appeared while I was writing this one. I still think there could have been an earlier one, and shall give the matter some attention.

 
jaygeemack
177930.  Fri May 25, 2007 9:24 am Reply with quote

Does anyone know when FIFA officially sanctioned penalty shoot outs as a means of deciding cup ties?

Was the Bolivia vs. Venezuela Amateur International in 1965 (who will ever forget that game?) decided on penalties in the same format we have today, ie five penalties each and then sudden death?

 
AlmondFacialBar
177931.  Fri May 25, 2007 9:27 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
AlmondFacialBar wrote:
anyone know any others?


Canadian Football comes at once to mind.

It's similar to American Football, but with one more player per team and an extra way of scoring called a single. Rather a minority sport even in Canada - (ice) hockey is of course the sporting passion, and I suppose baseball would be second, but association football and rugby union would run Canadian Football close for third.


now that was a totally new one on me, cool! :-)

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
96aelw
177955.  Fri May 25, 2007 10:18 am Reply with quote

There is also, of course, the glorious and noble table variety, which dates back to the later nineteenth century, though its precise origins are obscure (wiki carries only dark hints, and I have thus far failed to track down the various claims as to the precise geography and chronology of its genesis). Anyway, it seems that various people have built robots to play the game now; aside from that one, there's a bunch of Danes who've created one that's only lost once (although it's almost exclusively played amateurs), and an American one as well.

 
suze
177958.  Fri May 25, 2007 10:21 am Reply with quote

Right, to tidy up some loose ends.

Precisely when FIFA sanctioned the taking of kicks from the penalty mark (to give the procedure its proper name) as a means of deciding a game is proving surprisingly hard to pin down. The Bavarian FA adopted the rule in 1970, but all I can find is that the DFB (German FA), UEFA and FIFA adopted it "shortly afterwards".

It's clear that neither Karl Wald (who presented the notion to the Bavarian FA) nor Yosef Dagan (whose claim seems to appear only in Wiki and in sources derived from it) actually invented the procedure, since we know it was in use at the Bolivarian Games in 1965.

Whether the procedure then bore any relation to the way it's done now, I know not. Some sources suggest that at one time one team took all of its kicks before the second team took any - but I can find neither proof nor refutation of this.

Finally, I withdraw my assertion that there was one even before 1965. I've now found what I was thinking of, and it actually referred to the first match to be decided by means of a golden goal.

That seems to have been a game played on 8 May 1902 between Cricketer Wien and Slavia Praha, forming a semi final of that season's Challenge Cup - the championship of the then Habsburg Empire. It was 3-3 after full time, and Slavia declined to take the field for extra time, feeling that one of Cricketer's goals had been scored with the hand. Accordingly, Cricketer put the ball into the empty net for 4-3 and the referee promptly declared it to be the winner.

http://www.rsssf.com/tableso/oost-habs-challenge.html

 
96aelw
177982.  Fri May 25, 2007 11:23 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
anyone know any others?


There are also the various public school variants that never quite achieved the widespread popularity of Rugby's, such as Winchester football, Harrow football, and Eton's Field and Wall games. Plus the odd surviving example of the more lawless early versions of the game. In the Shrove Tuesday game at Alnwick, apparently, the game is resumed the next day if no goals have been scored by midnight. At Ashbourne in Derbyshire they just play for 2 days anyway, but as the goals are 3 miles apart, rather than 400 yards, this seems not unreasonable. The kick off locale at Ashbourne has remained unchanged over the centuries; once upon a time it was a field, but these days it is a supermarket car park. In both these games, the use of motor vehicles is strictly prohibited, as are murder and manslaughter. The rules don't seem to extend much past these points. Possibly my favourite of these kinds of football, however, is that played at Atherstone in Warwickshire, also on Shrove Tuesday, which has a certain brilliant purity to it. Not only do they eschew such tedious modern concerns as rules about being offside, attacking the other players or handling the ball, as all such traditional versions of the game seem to, but they also do without such trivial distractions as goals. The winner is simply he who is holding on to the ball when the game finishes at 5. It is legal to deflate or hide the ball after 4.30.

Maypoles, Martyrs and Mayhem, Quentin Cooper and Paul Sullivan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Shrovetide_Football
http://www.atherstonehistory.co.uk/atherstone/atherstone-ball-game/


Last edited by 96aelw on Fri May 25, 2007 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
AlmondFacialBar
177987.  Fri May 25, 2007 11:35 am Reply with quote

96aelw wrote:
The winner is simply he who is holding on to the ball when the game finishes at 5. It is legal to deflate or hide the ball after 4.30.


me likee! :-D

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
costean
178000.  Fri May 25, 2007 1:32 pm Reply with quote

Of a variety which has undoubted tabular connections, although of questionable gloriousness and nobility, there is also Subbuteo.

Falco subbuteo eurasian hobby trademark not granted for The Hobby hence Subbuteo symbol of falcon on all Subbuteo products cause of arguments and childhood fights.

I am sure this was mentioned on the QI TV show (the etymology not the fighting bit) although a search of the boards reveals very little.

It is known (obviously in the trade only) as Sports Table Football, (which technically is a different game), and it has a world championship and a world governing body - FISTF.

In its early years Subbuteo had a rival in Newfooty, a similar game invented in the 1920s and endorsed (in the 1950s) by the likes of Stanley Matthews, Nat Lofthouse and Lawrie Reilly. Subbuteo was introduced in 1946 and would seem to have won the popularity battle.

The wiki page has more info and trivia plus links to international Subbuteo websites from places such as New Zealand, Los Angeles and Barcelona and its surrounding counties (where, incidentally, it is known as Catalunya Futbol Taula).

For anyone still with me there is a Subbuteo discussion forum linked on the wiki page.

S.
Worcester City Museum
http://www.gamingcorner.nl/subbuteo.htm

 
BigHairyMonster
178022.  Fri May 25, 2007 3:22 pm Reply with quote

My football knowledge is lamentably poor, but could you get a question out of the Premiership's foundation year?

For example, pick a team that were relegated from the First division at the end of the previous season, and ask which division they played in during the next one. Klaxons for saying 'Second'.

 
suze
178074.  Fri May 25, 2007 6:39 pm Reply with quote

Fwiw, the possible teams would be Luton Town, Notts County and West Ham United.

Anyone who can find anything QI to say about any or all of those three clubs deserves a prize.

 

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