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Curious Danny
194685.  Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:51 am Reply with quote

I have to add, courtesy of Jeremy Clarkson, that Finland and the U.K are the only two democracies that have ever declared war on each other (in WW2)

 
Mulvil
194958.  Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:22 pm Reply with quote

I have to point out that this is not a correct "fact". Take for onew the fact that Britain wasn't the only only democracy that was part of the "allies" and as such more than one democracy declared war on Finland

There are many other examples here.


Maybe that could be a klaxonable question...."what are the only democracies to declare war on each other?"

Klaxon for Finland and Britain
Klaxon for Britain and America
In fact Klaxon for any of the examples on the above link.

 
dr.bob
194992.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:34 am Reply with quote

Mulvil wrote:
I have to point out that this is not a correct "fact". Take for onew the fact that Britain wasn't the only only democracy that was part of the "allies" and as such more than one democracy declared war on Finland


I was going to point that out, but caught myself before I posted. Whilst New Zealand, Australia, and Canada all declared war on Finland on the same day as Britain, I can find no evidence that Finland declared war on any of them except Britain.

Thus Britain and Finland were the only democracies to declare war on each other during WWII.

However, as for other wars:

Mulvil wrote:
There are many other examples here.


I shall have to give that link a good read.

 
suze
195066.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:43 am Reply with quote

I just did, and it's rather interesting.

As so often, it all comes down to how one defines terms such as "democracy" and "war" - especially the latter, since very often armed hostilities take place without war having actually been declared (QI forums, passim).

One which comes to mind is the so-called Cod War of the 1970s. The UK and Iceland did exchange blows - i.e. Icelandic gunboats fired on British fishing vessels, and British gunboats rammed Icelandic vessels - but war was never officially declared. All the same, it was popularly perceived as war of a sort and the two countries did break off normal diplomatic relations. You won't find it listed in your history books as a war - is this perhaps because, by most standards of determining such things, the UK lost?

 
Curious Danny
195087.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:34 am Reply with quote

Just so i know, is this a fact?

When WW2 ended and soviets and americans entered Berlin, they captured the german rocket scientists (best in the world) and took them home where they would eventually be deeply involved in the space program.

Fact or fiction?

 
AlmondFacialBar
195089.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:37 am Reply with quote

true. the german rocket scientists came to america as prisoners of war, whatever tom lehrer has to say on the matter.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Curious Danny
195092.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:39 am Reply with quote

Was it kept a secret or did everyone know?

 
AlmondFacialBar
195093.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:45 am Reply with quote

good one... i remember there was a huge big article in our lcoal paper about it at some point because these guys were all sent to the states via bremerhaven. i dare say, like so much of history, it's as secret or as well-known as is in the interest of the chronicler.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
dr.bob
195111.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:50 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
As so often, it all comes down to how one defines terms such as "democracy" and "war" - especially the latter, since very often armed hostilities take place without war having actually been declared (QI forums, passim).


Indeed. Presumably there is some formal process by which war is declared. If you're prepared to declare a war as some form of conflict, the history is littered with democracies declaring war on each other.

It's interesting to note that, according to http://worldatwar.net/timeline/other/diplomacy39-45.html (first posted by djgordy in post 191260), of the four nations that declared war against Finland on December 7 1941, Finland only chose to declare war against Britain. There's also quite a lot of "being in a state of belligerence towards..." and "breaking off diplomatic relations with..." going on there too.

suze wrote:
One which comes to mind is the so-called Cod War of the 1970s.


Yeah, that occurred to me too. Must remember to mention that one if this ever gets brought up in the pub :)

suze wrote:
The UK and Iceland did exchange blows - i.e. Icelandic gunboats fired on British fishing vessels


Gunboats? I thought it was the Coast Guard who were fighting on the Icelandic side?

suze wrote:
You won't find it listed in your history books as a war - is this perhaps because, by most standards of determining such things, the UK lost?


I'll have you know that the UK has a proud tradition of losing in all sorts of endeavours! :)

 
ali
195114.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:56 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
I'll have you know that the UK has a proud tradition of losing in all sorts of endeavours! :)


True, but we like to think we're quite good at war.

 
dr.bob
195117.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:05 am Reply with quote

Unless it's a war of independence, in which case we suddenly remember that we never really wanted that bit of old scrubland anyway.

 
Tas
195126.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:04 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Unless it's a war of independence, in which case we suddenly remember that we never really wanted that bit of old scrubland anyway.


Much nicer to keep Canada anyway.

:-)

Tas

 
getmeaguiness
195128.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:10 am Reply with quote

And it's bigger. Canada 9.984k kmē, USA 9.631k kmē (from wiki)

 
Tas
195132.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:14 am Reply with quote

And Canuckians are not as Revoluting (or revolting)...

:-)

Tas

 
markvent
195145.  Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:47 am Reply with quote

Curious Danny wrote:
Just so i know, is this a fact?

When WW2 ended and soviets and americans entered Berlin, they captured the german rocket scientists (best in the world) and took them home where they would eventually be deeply involved in the space program.

Fact or fiction?


Quote:
"The Russians put our camera made by our German scientists and your film made by your German scientists into their satellite made by their German scientists."


Further to earlier answers - that would be Operation Paperclip

In February 1958 Wehrner von Braun made the cover of Time Magazine and the article openly mentions Operation Paperclip.

In 1947, the Ministry of Supply developed a policy for the over 1500 scientists and technicians who were formally involved in wartime research in Germany. This policy dictated to forcibly remove 'whether they liked it or not' the scientists from Germany to lessen the risk of them falling into enemy hands. The ministry organised for work permits to be issued for the scientists and their families to come to the UK, its colonies and the USA to work on similar projects. The first file (1403) details the policy and communication within the Foreign Office and with cooperating national Governments. The second file (1406) is a detailed list of persons involved in the scheme and projects they were placed in.

linked to this operation were the following ....
"Operation Surgeon" for Avionics, "Operation Alsos" for Nuclear Weapons and "Target Intelligence Committee" for Cryptography

Mark.

 

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