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otyikondo
889454.  Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:10 pm Reply with quote

Zebra57 wrote:
A very naughty person from Finland

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/9097513/First-Man-of-Finland-caught-gawping-at-Danish-princesss-breasts.html


It now turns out that the footage was doctored. Eight minutes was cut out of the original and the footage was spliced together for effect, and the soundtrack was manipulated, too. The clip was first shown on a Danish TV satirical programme. If you look carefully, suddenly his hand - on the table in the first shot - isn't any more in the supposed "next image". DR have fessed up to the manipulation.

So, not much to see here after all. Although he probably did cop a look. Shows he's got a pulse. The sad bit is the way supposedly serious newspapers run with this sort of stuff...

 
Sadurian Mike
889587.  Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:00 am Reply with quote

I can't help feeling that your princesses are definitely worth a sneaky ogle.

 
Wombatant
963452.  Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:47 am Reply with quote

Something we finns aren't particularly proud of but it happened:
From the end of the 19th century up until 1922, in parts of Finland, orphans, the disabled, and the elderly who had no one else to support them were auctioned off. The idea of the auction was that a peasant (farmer) who promised to take care of an orphan or an elderly for the smallest sum was the one who got compensated by the parish.

In Finnish the term for those auctioned is/was "huutolainen" (auctioned) or "huutolaislapsi" (auction child). I've tried finding an online-source in English, but have yet to find one that went into any proper depth.

http://www.booksfromfinland.fi/2011/11/jouko-halmekoski-orjamarkkinat-huutolaislasten-kohtaloita-suomessa-the-slave-market-the-fate-of-auctioned-pauper-children-in-finland/

 
CB27
963605.  Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:19 pm Reply with quote

Whilst abolished on paper in 1923, there have been documented cases of such auctions as late as the 1950s. These auctions were usually held on 29th December.

 
Wombatant
963650.  Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:55 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
Whilst abolished on paper in 1923, there have been documented cases of such auctions as late as the 1950s. These auctions were usually held on 29th December.


I have it as the 28th, which is ironically the Innocents Day (or The Innocent Children's Day as it's called in Finland).

 
CB27
963658.  Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:43 pm Reply with quote

I might have misread the number :)

 
Wombatant
963675.  Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:00 am Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
I might have misread the number :)


It is entirely possible it was me who misremembers the number. I would ask my granddad who was one of the kids who got auctioned, but he's no longer available for consultation.

 
aahaavis
974997.  Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:59 am Reply with quote

Even though 80 % of words in Finnish are borrowed words of clear origin and yet many Finns tend to be proud of how Finnish has less borrowed words than other languages.
There are few finnish words borrowed to other languages, but "sauna" is definitely the most international. I've had people asking me why Finnish doesn't have an own word for sauna when sauna is so popular in Finland, when in fact "sauna" is of course a Finnish word.
Another funny one is "juopporatti" which means a drunkard. It is borrowed to japanese in the form "yopparai". Apparently many Finns were drunk in Japan and the Japanese started to call drunkards with the Finnish word for a drunkard.

There are a couple of silly sports invented in Finland and they hold "world championships" in here. Some of those are cellphone throwing, rubberboot throwing and wife carrying race.


Here is a funny sounding Finnish conversation and it's translation:

-Kokoa kokoon koko kokko.
-Koko kokkoko?
-Koko kokko.

-Collect all the wood for the bonfire.
-All the wood for the bonfire?
-Yes, all the wood.

 
Jenny
975032.  Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:00 am Reply with quote

Oh I love that! Will steal all those Ks for K series research...

 
CB27
975175.  Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:46 pm Reply with quote

That would be great for the K series for Stephen to drop in.

I wonder where the idea that Finnish has less loanwords than other languages comes from? I ask because it's an agglutinative language, and as such has a reduced grammar base to many other languages (and also why some people thought it was related to Turkish and Japanese). A loanword might be apply to a single word, but will therefore apply to many other related words as well.

suze or someone far better qualified than me will probably be able to explain :)

 
Zebra57
975275.  Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:49 am Reply with quote

Basque and Korean are also classed as agglutinative languages. Have scholars ever tried to link Finnish to these languages?

 
suze
975510.  Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:24 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
I wonder where the idea that Finnish has less loanwords than other languages comes from?


I think that to some extent it's ignorance. Finnish is rather strict about assimilating loanwords - they are forced to alter their sound patterns to the rules of the Finnish language, and they are forced to spell themselves in a way that Finnish allows. As a result, a lot of Finns probably don't realize that particular words are loans.

For instance, the Finnish word for a potato is peruna. Do most Finns even know that this is a loan from Swedish of a word that is now obsolete, but with the vowels changed to be Suomi-legal.

Comparably, a lot of Japanese don't know - and even if they are told, they try to deny - that more than half of pre-C20 Japanese vocabulary is actually Chinese. Almost half of the French vocabulary is of Germanic origin, but no Frenchman is ever likely to admit it.

Mind you, if the proportion of Finnish words which are loans really is 80%, that's lower than the proportion of loans in many other languages. About 85% of English words have been borrowed or stolen, and for some languages the figure is well over 90%.


Zebra57 wrote:
Basque and Korean are also classed as agglutinative languages. Have scholars ever tried to link Finnish to these languages?


Oh yes! The Ural-Altaic hypothesis, which sought to relate Finnish to Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, and Turkish has been around since 1848; it was first expounded by a Finn called Matthias Castren. It was pretty much the received wisdom for a century or so. Only in the 1960s did it begin to be seriously doubted, but within twenty years or so it had been almost completely abandoned.

Inuktitut too is an agglutinative language, and the Ural-Eskimo hypothesis is even older - it was first stated by Rasmus Rask in 1818 - and is now as popular as it's ever been. Which is to say "not very", but it's been "policy" at the University of Oslo for sixty years at least.

There is a Finno-Basque hypothesis; it's best described as "esoteric". A handful of French academics actually seem to believe it, but there's some suspicion that its original statement - which was anonymous on Usenet in about 1997 - was a joke.

 
CB27
975587.  Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:01 pm Reply with quote

I'm surprised the loan rate in English is as low as 85%, I always assumed it was one of the worst languages for borrowing from others :)

 
suze
975594.  Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:18 pm Reply with quote

Ultimately it's very hard to produce meaningful figures for this, for which reason there's no ranking in the Big Fat Book of Language Lists. (A book which doesn't exist, but ought to.)

When it comes down to it, very few words indeed are pure invention. Quiz is often cited as one that was - the story goes that a guy in Dublin decided that the best way to become famous would be to make up a new word. But in fact, the story isn't true - the word quiz already existed, albeit with a different meaning.

Most neologisms are devised in one of four ways. Either we take an existing word and give it a slightly new meaning, we combine existing words or word elements in a new way, we adopt a personal name or a place name - or we borrow a word from another language.

All bar the last would make a word "not a loan word" in the eyes of those who seek to produce figures such as those quoted above. And since English certainly has more C20 neologisms than any other language, we can get to somewhere around 15% of words as not loan words.

I'm not sure about the 80% figure for Finnish. There are reckoned to be about 400 "pure Finnish" words which came from Proto-Uralic and are not found in the Indo-European languages. But after that, the vast majority of new words have been borrowed from Swedish (until about 1800), Russian (for the next century), and English and German (thereafter). Even so, there will be neologisms that can be counted as "not a loan word".

Some languages have very few words indeed which are not loan words. The vast, vast majority of the pre-1900 Spanish vocabulary is either Latin or Arabic, and most new words since have come from English and French. Armenian is reckoned to have even less vocabulary of its own - when you take out the Greek, Persian, and Russian words and the recent English-inspired words, there ain't a lot left.

 
aahaavis
976135.  Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:44 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:

I'm not sure about the 80% figure for Finnish. There are reckoned to be about 400 "pure Finnish" words which came from Proto-Uralic and are not found in the Indo-European languages. But after that, the vast majority of new words have been borrowed from Swedish (until about 1800), Russian (for the next century), and English and German (thereafter). Even so, there will be neologisms that can be counted as "not a loan word".


The 80% figure comes from a book called "Suomen peruskielioppi" (The Basic Grammar of Finnish) by Fred Karlsson, a professor of general linguistics at Helsinki University

I figured there might be more borrowed words in some of the bigger european languages, but I believe there are many languages where there are less borrowed words. What I meant is that Finns tend to believe it is significantly less, something like 20 %.

Another interesting thing that Karlsson also says in his book is that "Suomi" (Finland in Finnish) is one of the most used words of Finnish language. Maybe it means Finns are very nationalistic?

 

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