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costean
148955.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:04 pm Reply with quote

Being daringly unimaginative I am now going to quote the German Federal Statistical Office. They say 156km.

But the post above from Hans Mof leads me to believe (very little escapes me!) that they might be giving out incorrect information. What is the world coming to when we cannot believe a Federal Statistical Office?

Will have to think about this one....

 
Dr Hudebnik
148957.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:08 pm Reply with quote

I'm not 100% sure that Haydn was in Vienna at the time, but perhaps he was in Hungary. It became known (and was used in a quartet) from when he was in Vienna, but I'm sure it's in at least one earlier work.

 
costean
148966.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:49 pm Reply with quote

OK, let's have a go at the Belgium question. I will agree with Suze and say none. The reason being that the only part having a border with Germany is Wallonia which is deemed as being distinct from Belgium.

 
Spinoza
148973.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:58 pm Reply with quote

Dr Hudebnik wrote:
I'm not 100% sure that Haydn was in Vienna at the time, but perhaps he was in Hungary. It became known (and was used in a quartet) from when he was in Vienna, but I'm sure it's in at least one earlier work.


I suspect Hans Mof may have a trick up his sleeve. After he got the sack from Esterhazy, his patron's heir not being fond of music, he travelled extensively in his later years. He certainly visited Paris and London, and although I don't know the answer to the question I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer was one of these.

 
Dr Hudebnik
149000.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:43 pm Reply with quote

Yes, I had thought of London Haydn had been in London just before the period in question. Did the tune first appear in one of the Soloman quartets? I'm trying not to use other resources here...

 
Spinoza
149005.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:12 pm Reply with quote

I think we may be on to something.........I seem to recall that the tune does feature in one of the late quartets, but like you I would need to check elsewhere.

 
Spinoza
149027.  Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:10 pm Reply with quote

Turns out Haydn wrote the tune in 1797, two years after he'd returned from London for the second time. It was first composed as an anthem for Emperor Francis II of the Holy Roman Empire, but it soon after appeared as one of the movements in the quartet No. 62 in C major, op.76 No. 3, ever afterwards known as the Kaiser quartet. As to where Haydn was when he composed it, it would appear he was back in Austria. By this time the Esterhazy musical ensemble had been reconstituted and Haydn was again its Director, though concentrating very much on his last compositions including the Masses and The Creation. So the answer would appear to be Esterhazy, unless of course he composed it in London and brought it back with him.

Some other interesting snippets I uncovered - Haydn died in Vienna, and during Napoleon's invasion of Austria he ordered a detachment of his own Imperial Guard to stand watch over Haydn's house. At his last public appearance, Beethoven went down on his knees before him. And he owned an impressive collection of banned literature - philosophy, politics and the like, not the other kind.

 
Mr Grue
149158.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:51 am Reply with quote

The Belgium-German border is of infinite length.

 
Mulvil
149175.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:06 am Reply with quote

Do explain Mr. Grue

 
Mulvil
149177.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:07 am Reply with quote

And also where were the words to the anthem written or is the question purely about the music, which it has been established by spinoza as being written in austria

 
Mr Grue
149195.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:20 am Reply with quote

If we pretend for a moment that the border is a 1 mile long straight line and we have a 1 mile rule, then we can lay the rule across the border and measure it accordingly. Nice and simple.

If, however the border is 2 miles long, and shaped like an S then we will be unable to measure it accurately with a 1 mile rule. If, in this world, there is no alternative to using the 1 mile rule, we would end up with an erroneous measurement. If the start and finish of the S was a mile apart, we would then assume that the border length is 1 mile, based on our measurement.

But if we had a smaller rule, say a quarter mile rule, then we would get a more accurate measurement, but it would still be wrong, because the quarter mile rule does not hug to the curve of the S.

In the real world, borders are ragged affairs that exist in three dimensions, and the closer we look at them, the more ragged they become. The measurement of the border, therefore, is dependent as much on the size of rule and method with which we measure the border as it is the size of the border itself. If we use smaller and smaller rules then we get a larger and larger measurement.

 
Mulvil
149212.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:31 am Reply with quote

That doesn't mean it is infinite, it just means it is difficult to measure.


Lets say you got a string and placed it along said S shaped border, could you not then straighten the string and measure it?

 
ali
149217.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:34 am Reply with quote

I don't have a number for the length of the border, but one reason why it might be different to the expected figure is the existence of the Vennbahn exclaves. These are five small areas of Germany which are cut off from the rest of the country by a Belgian railway line which is Belgian territory.

 
Mr Grue
149224.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:40 am Reply with quote

Mulvil wrote:
That doesn't mean it is infinite, it just means it is difficult to measure.

Lets say you got a string and placed it along said S shaped border, could you not then straighten the string and measure it?


But strings have to be able to bend, and they're only so bendy. In that sense, they're a series of rules that are hinged together. It's not the difficulty of measurement, it's the purpose to which you intend to put the collected information; that determines how finely you wish to make the measurement.

The border is infinite in the sense that, when we get to atomic and subatomic levels the measurements would theoretically become colossal (you'd also be unable to physically do it). I suppose you could say that it is not infinite in the sense that there is a physical limit to the fineness of the measurement, but we can conceptually go beyond that just as we can conceptually go beyond the speed of light. We just know its physically impossible to get there.

 
Mulvil
149235.  Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:48 am Reply with quote

Strings do bend, and they aren't only "so bendy" they can bend as much as you want or need, your just making stuff up now

 

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