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suze
267764.  Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:12 pm Reply with quote

point wrote:
I have to correct you in this. Sater Frisian actually is more Frisian than West (Lauwers) Frisian is.


Quite right, klaxon for me. Sater Frisian is indeed in the same group as the other Frisian languages.

point wrote:
I think that the confusion comes from the East Frisian variety of Low Saxon. Much people already know East Frisian Low Saxon is not Frisian, but Low Saxon (thank God), but much people still think that Sater Frisian has to be Low Saxon cause it's an East Frisian languages.


That, I fear, is precisely the heffalump trap into which I had fallen. My apologies. To make it abundantly clear - East Frisian also known as Sater Frisian is not the same thing as East Frisian Low Saxon. The former is a Frisian language / dialect; the latter is Netherlandic / Saxon / whatever one wishes to call it.

point wrote:
The only reason the Anglic and Saxon people called themselves Frisian was because the most notable persons were of Frisian descent. Old Frisian therefore is rather and Anglosaxon than an Anglo Frisian language.


Opinion is divided as to whether Old English and Old Frisian were mutually intelligible, but they were certainly pretty close to being so. Old Norse wasn't vastly different either. A speaker of modern Icelandic would probably understand all three more easily than would a speaker of modern English.

(ASIDE: I've posted on this before, point, but since you are quite new around here you mightn't have seen it - there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that the language of the Isle of Sheppey, off the Kent coast, was recognisably Frisian rather than English until the late 17th / early 18th century.)

So I have to agree that the standard taxonomy of the Germanic languages isn't perfect - but I'd suggest that to revise it would make it even less perfect. For instance, the modern Scandinavian languages are descended from Old Norse, which was rather similar to Old English. All the same, they are more distant from Modern English than is Modern Dutch.

As far as I know, practically nothing is known of the language of the Frisii - i.e. the people who occupied Friesland before the Angles and Saxons arrived.

point wrote:
The Dutch language is a Franconian language, like French. (snip) In the south Franconian was Romanized (actually very few Franconian words survived in French or maybe even none at all)


More than that! As ever on these matters, opinions are divided - but the most conservative estimates claim that there are around 400 words of clear Frankish origin in Modern French; some writers go much higher. There are perhaps 200 words of Gaulish ("Celtic") origin, while most of the rest of the French vocabulary is derived from Latin. (Originally the Vulgar Latin from which the French language primarily developed; words from Classical Latin started to be borrowed in numbers in the 16th century.)

 
point
268182.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:00 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Opinion is divided as to whether Old English and Old Frisian were mutually intelligible, but they were certainly pretty close to being so. Old Norse wasn't vastly different either. A speaker of modern Icelandic would probably understand all three more easily than would a speaker of modern English.

(ASIDE: I've posted on this before, point, but since you are quite new around here you mightn't have seen it - there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that the language of the Isle of Sheppey, off the Kent coast, was recognisably Frisian rather than English until the late 17th / early 18th century.)
I've read something before posting and I've seen it. Of course it's possible that it might have been Frisian, but it's still is a matter of how you define Frisian. Don't forget that the Anglo-Saxons moved through the Frisian territory towards England and that they may have absorbed quite an amount of Frisian words especially if they stayed for a longer time before they moved further. Keep in mind that the colonisation of England wasn't completely organised. People moved with their neighbours or family and paused often or sometimes just stayed forever.

suze wrote:
As far as I know, practically nothing is known of the language of the Frisii - i.e. the people who occupied Friesland before the Angles and Saxons arrived.
My mistake, I think it would be have more clear if I would have said the language of the Frisii instead of Frisian. The Frisii were the ones living in the region of the current province of Fryslân and because the population slinked a big part of their languages got lost, especially because of the re-population of mainly Anglic and Saxon people. If I remember correctly in the year 1000 the Frisian language was only for around 20% the language of the Frisii.[/quote]

suze wrote:
That, I fear, is precisely the heffalump trap into which I had fallen. My apologies. To make it abundantly clear - East Frisian also known as Sater Frisian is not the same thing as East Frisian Low Saxon. The former is a Frisian language / dialect; the latter is Netherlandic / Saxon / whatever one wishes to call it.


That is actually still wrong. East Frisian is a language and it's only remaining dialectal group is Sater Frisian. It's not that East Frisian is Sater Frisian, but it's Sater Frisian that is East Frisian where Sater Frisian actually is more an archaic version and where it actually is the only region outside Frisia where Frisian currently is spoken.

 
suze
268224.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:14 pm Reply with quote

point wrote:
Of course it's possible that it might have been Frisian, but it's still is a matter of how you define Frisian.


Well indeed. It will probably never be possible to know for certain precisely what it was, since this language of Sheppey seems not to have been written. Call it Frisian, call it Residual Old English perhaps, but chances are that it was a thing which - in around 1700 when it was noted to exist - would have been more readily understood in Ljouwert* than in London.

point wrote:
If I remember correctly in the year 1000 the Frisian language was only for around 20% the language of the Frisii.


Do you mean that only about 20% of Old Frisian (i.e. the language spoken c. 1000 CE) was derived from the earlier language of the Frisii - the remaining 80% being Anglo-Saxon in character? If so, that strikes me as entirely plausible - although none of the books at my disposal say any more on the matter than that nothing is known of the earlier language.

point wrote:
That is actually still wrong. East Frisian is a language and it's only remaining dialectal group is Sater Frisian. It's not that East Frisian is Sater Frisian, but it's Sater Frisian that is East Frisian where Sater Frisian actually is more an archaic version and where it actually is the only region outside Frisia where Frisian currently is spoken.


The distinction between a language and a dialect is always a tricky subject - there is no general agreement, and in any case it doesn't really matter all that much. But the point is well made; to equate the two is a bit sloppy - and, until 1953 when the last speaker of Weser Frisian died, would have been plain wrong.

Ethnologue doesn't agree though for what it's worth - it considers East Frisian as one language, also known as Sater Frisian or Seeltersk.

(http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=frs)

All the same, I'm kind of guessing that you're a Frisian speaker yourself, in which case I'll certainly take your word over that of a reference work!


* as point will know but others may not, this is the Frisian language name for the city which is called Leeuwarden in Dutch

 
The Doctor
268226.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:21 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Call it Frisian, call it Residual Old English perhaps, but chances are that it was a thing which - in around 1700 when it was noted to exist - would have been more readily understood in Ljouwert* than in London.



please note that the 'language' most commonly spoken on the streets of Ljouwert/Leeuwarden today isn't exactly Dutch or Frisian, we call it 'Leuwurdis' (spelling probably optional)

 
point
268415.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:46 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
point wrote:
If I remember correctly in the year 1000 the Frisian language was only for around 20% the language of the Frisii.


Do you mean that only about 20% of Old Frisian (i.e. the language spoken c. 1000 CE) was derived from the earlier language of the Frisii - the remaining 80% being Anglo-Saxon in character? If so, that strikes me as entirely plausible - although none of the books at my disposal say any more on the matter than that nothing is known of the earlier language.
Yes, however I don't know the exact percentage. It may be 15%, it may be 25%, but it's very improbable to be more than 40%.

suze wrote:
The distinction between a language and a dialect is always a tricky subject - there is no general agreement, and in any case it doesn't really matter all that much. But the point is well made; to equate the two is a bit sloppy - and, until 1953 when the last speaker of Weser Frisian died, would have been plain wrong.
Weser Frisian was not a dialect, but a group of dialects. There were two groups of East Frisian dialects, Weser Frisian in the east, Ems Frisian in the west. Sater Frisian is an Ems dialect, Wangereachsk (I don't know the English term) is a Weser dialect and died in 1950 (not 1953).

suze wrote:
Ethnologue doesn't agree though for what it's worth - it considers East Frisian as one language, also known as Sater Frisian or Seeltersk.

(http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=frs)
It's not that easy, cause even ethnologue doesn't know it:P

For me it's quite simple. There are three languages: North Frisian, East Frisian and West Lauwers Frisian (West Frisian actually is an incorrect name, because West Frisian is a Dutch dialect in the province of North Holland) and there are the following dialectal groups and dialects:

-West (Lauwers) Frisian
*Wood Frisian
*Clay Frisian
*Southwest Frisian
*North corner Frisian, Norther Frisian or Noardhoeksk
*Hylpersk
*Skylgersk (or Westerish)
*Aastersk (or Easterish)
*Skiermûntseagersk

-East Frisian
#Ems Frisian
*Aurich Frisian
*Brokmer Frisian
*Northerlandish
*Emslandish
*Moarmerlandish
*Reiderl Frisian
*Borkum Frisian
*Baltrum Frisian
#Weser Frisian
*Wangereachsk
*Harlingerlandish
*Jeverlandish
*Rostringerish
*Bûtjadingersk
*Wursten Frisian
*Wuerd Frisian
*Spikereagersk
*Lange-eagersk

-North Frisian
#Mainland Frisian
*Halligen Frisian
*Hoorning
*Karhiirder Frisian
*Böökinghiirder (west and east Mooring)
*Wiiringhiirder Frisian
#Insular Frisian
*Fering
*Heligolandic (Halunder)
*Öömrang
*Sölring


Last edited by point on Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total

 
point
268418.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:50 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
All the same, I'm kind of guessing that you're a Frisian speaker yourself, in which case I'll certainly take your word over that of a reference work!
Since I don't speak all those Frisian language and since I'm not 1000 years old already there must be a place I got my knowledge from;)

 
point
268421.  Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:58 pm Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
suze wrote:
Call it Frisian, call it Residual Old English perhaps, but chances are that it was a thing which - in around 1700 when it was noted to exist - would have been more readily understood in Ljouwert* than in London.



please note that the 'language' most commonly spoken on the streets of Ljouwert/Leeuwarden today isn't exactly Dutch or Frisian, we call it 'Leuwurdis' (spelling probably optional)
Still, I'm curious of the Old Frisian name for Ljouwert:)

 
Hans Mof
268927.  Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:17 pm Reply with quote

point wrote:
Still, I'm curious of the Old Frisian name for Ljouwert:)


Hmmm, could be tricky. The oldest reference I could find was Lintarwde. In the 8th century it pops up in a deed of donation of an abbey in Fulda (Germany). However, at that point modern day Leeuwarden/Ljouwert/Liwwadden (Dutch/West Frisian/City Frisian) wasn't yet founded. It wasn't until January 1435 the settlements Oldehove, Nijehove en Hoek fused to form the town.

My boyfriend, a pure bred Frisian, believes the oldest Frisian name for the town to be Lienward. You are of course free to take your pick out off the over 200 spelling varieties. This, by the way, makes Leeuwarden the city with the most "names".

 
npower1
268969.  Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:01 pm Reply with quote

Can I just say that I amazed by the depth of knowledge that is expressed by this thread.

 
AlmondFacialBar
268976.  Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:14 pm Reply with quote

do i read that list of frisian languages and dialects correctly and wurstfrisian still exists? if so, consider me amazed. wursten is a frisian enclave east of the weser estuary, between bremerhaven and cuxhaven, and totally surrounded by lower saxon dialects. given that the wurstfrisians count about 10000, and are surrounded by about 200000 lower saxon speakers, not to mention the general prevalence of german over the past two generations in the whole region. kudos to them if the language has really managed to survived under that amount of pressure.

homesick for the beach in dorum now... ;-)

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


Last edited by AlmondFacialBar on Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total

 
CB27
269227.  Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:54 am Reply with quote

Did anyone catch the program on BBC4 last night about India?

They touched about the origin of Sanskrit and suggested it was much older and more influential than I remember previously learning.

 
point
269284.  Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:55 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
do i read that list of frisian languages and dialects correctly and wurstfrisian still exists? if so, consider me amazed. wursten is a frisian enclave east of the wester estuary, between bremerhaven and cuxhaven, and totally surrounded by lower saxon dialects. given that the wurstfrisians count about 10000, and are surrounded by about 200000 lower saxon speakers, not to mention the general prevalence of german over the past two generations in the whole region. kudos to them if the language has really managed to survived under that amount of pressure.

homesick for the beach in dorum now... ;-)

:-)

AlmondFacialBar
Wurst Frisian died out in the beginning of the 18th century or at the end of the 17th century. Sater Frisian is the only remaining dialect of East Frisian.

 
point
269300.  Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:06 am Reply with quote

Hans Mof wrote:


That's a pretty big list with spelling varieties. I think the most differences are there because of all the different dialects in Frisia and the low lands. In a certain wood Frisian dialect they don't pronounce 'er' in Ljouwert and it becomes Ljouwt. A friend of mine living in the Low Saxon region around Kollum can't pronounce Ljouwert at all and often says Lout.

 
AlmondFacialBar
269357.  Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:23 am Reply with quote

point wrote:
AlmondFacialBar wrote:
do i read that list of frisian languages and dialects correctly and wurstfrisian still exists? if so, consider me amazed. wursten is a frisian enclave east of the wester estuary, between bremerhaven and cuxhaven, and totally surrounded by lower saxon dialects. given that the wurstfrisians count about 10000, and are surrounded by about 200000 lower saxon speakers, not to mention the general prevalence of german over the past two generations in the whole region. kudos to them if the language has really managed to survived under that amount of pressure.

homesick for the beach in dorum now... ;-)

:-)

AlmondFacialBar
Wurst Frisian died out in the beginning of the 18th century or at the end of the 17th century. Sater Frisian is the only remaining dialect of East Frisian.


thought so...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
rioconnection
305136.  Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:25 am Reply with quote

Not sure if this is the right place for this but it might make an interesting topic for discussion. How do regional accents come about. For instance, How did the American accent get started? How come Texan, Bostonian, New York and Southern states' accents differ so much. Furthermore, anyone know how many regional accents there are in the Uk or US?

 

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