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Frederick The Monk
154429.  Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:48 am Reply with quote

Seems eminently sensible although I'm not sure why he picks on the Basques as our ancestors.

154431.  Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:55 am Reply with quote

That's my fault for not quoting the whole article, I think. I agree that it sounds odd, but it does seem to be argued quite cogently as far as I am qualified to say, and certainly at some length.

164345.  Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:02 am Reply with quote

“Many of these old English names are now dying out as prudish owners change them by deed poll” (from the draft England script, as circulated).

If we use that phrase, common though it is, someone is certain to pick us up on it. On the other hand, the mythunderstandings surrounding name changes and peed dolls are in themselves interesting, and perhaps worth including on the notes:

You can change your name at any time, as long as you are 18 or older, and as long as you are not doing it to commit fraud. There is no legal process you must follow. All you need do is start using your new name and tell people that you now want to be known by this name.


If you want to get all your documents and records changed to show a new name e.g. your medical records, bank account, credit cards, UK passport, driving licence etc, you will be asked to produce documentary evidence of your change of name. A Deed Poll is a formal statement to prove that you have changed your name and it provides you with the necessary documentary evidence of the name by which you wish to be known


(Incidentally, from the same site:
A Deed is a written legal agreement that has been signed and delivered (shown to all concerned parties). Poll is an old English word used to describe a legal document that had its edges cut (polled) so they were straight. This was done to visually distinguish between a deed signed by one person (a polled deed - hence the term Deed Poll) and a deed signed by more than one person (an indenture), which had an edge indented or serrated. Interestingly, indentures were originally written twice (side by side) on one piece of parchment, which was then torn down the middle and each half given to each party. The impossibility of matching the tear was a guard against forgery.)

So: signing a deed poll does not change your name; your name is changed when you say it is, the deed poll is merely a convenient piece of paper. Therefore phrases like “she changed her name by deed poll” are completely wrong.

164346.  Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:10 am Reply with quote

“Well into the 20th century the term England was used interchangeably to mean England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and even the Empire as a whole.”

I feel that’s too bald; we’re making it sound as if the word Britain didn’t exist (by the way, the words “with Britain“ are presumably missing after “interchangeably,“ above), and as if this was a settled and universal usage. I suspect it would be easy to find examples in, say, Victorian times of accurate usage of “Britain” and “Great Britain” and “the British Isles” contemporaneous with the loose use of “England” described above.

I am, of course being, picky - but I think “was often used” instead of “was used” would keep the interestingness of the answer, while also improving its accuracy.

Molly Cule
165311.  Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:08 am Reply with quote

The Wedding Ring of England is a ring made for the coronation of William IV in 1831, it has been worn at every coronation ceremony since - except for Queen Victoria's coronation as her finers were too small that the ring would fall off. She had a new ring made for her coronation that was forced onto the wrong finger, which really hurt.

jewels- a secret history.

Last edited by Molly Cule on Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total

165350.  Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:10 am Reply with quote

Mat - the source was this:

The correct and careful use of such terms as "United Kingdom" in any context other than the strictly legal is a recent development, dating from about the 1930s, when modern Scottish nationalism became a live political issue. Anything written before that date, even by historians, is likely to use "England". Disraeli famously signed the 1878 Treaty of Berlin as "Prime Minister of England", to the dismay of his Foreign Office advisers. And A.J.P. Taylor, in the preface to his volume of the "Oxford History of England", published in 1965, had to point out that "when the Oxford History was launched a generation ago 'England' was still an all-embracing word. It meant indiscriminately England and Wales, Great Britain, the United Kingdom, and even the British Empire." As a result of this, the usual term in most foreign languages has always been "England", and will probably continue to be so for some time yet.

But it does look like there should be mention of "Britain" as an option, as you say.

165566.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:53 am Reply with quote

Oh yes, I’m not disputing that Ingerland was widely used to mean Britain - I’m warning against us giving the impression that the term Britain wasn't also used. I can supply scores of 19th century (and, indeed, before) “Britains” (and “Britons” for the inhabitants.) I just think we’re in danger of creating a myth here: that Britain was invented in the 1930s. It wasn’t.

Also, these fashions come and go; for a while in the 19th century, for instance, Scotland was often referred to (in Scotland) as North Britain and Scots as North Britons. There is (or was until very recently) a hotel in Edinburgh called, I think, the North Briton.

We mustn’t suggest that there were unbroken centuries of “England” which then became “UK” (or whatever). The truth is, there haven’t been unbroken centuries of any-think.

Also, I think the Scottish Nationalist hypothesis (above) is very contentious. I think a much stronger argument could be made for the “total war” or “people’s war” philosophy of WW2 as being the greatest engine of the change to “Britain.” Too much to go into here, but just one point is that it was necessary to convince communist-inclined key communities, especially in Scotland and Wales, that this was not an imperialist war, but a war of the united masses against tyranny. Hence, exhorting Welsh miners to dig faster in order to defeat “England’s” enemies would have been giving an unnecessary opening to the enemy within.

And so it goes, to quote the late master.

165583.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:13 am Reply with quote

MatC wrote:
Also, these fashions come and go; for a while in the 19th century, for instance, Scotland was often referred to (in Scotland) as North Britain and Scots as North Britons. There is (or was until very recently) a hotel in Edinburgh called, I think, the North Briton.

The North British Hotel (or NB as the residents knew it) stood at number 1 Princes Street and its famous clock tower is a recognisable landmark of Edinburgh. It seems it took its name from the North British Railway Company who originally owned it (you used to be able to take a lift direct from Waverley station into the hotel).

It was sold in the 80's and, after three years of refurbishment, reopened as the Balmoral Hotel in 1991, though residents continued to refer to it as the NB. It now has a bar on the ground floor called "NB's"


165620.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:25 am Reply with quote

(you used to be able to take a lift direct from Waverley station into the hotel).

Cor, neat! Like something out of "Get Smart". Link to engineering, eh?

Molly Cule
165630.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:41 am Reply with quote

In 18th C England, if you popped into a posh house for tea you might see the maids decked out in fine pearls. This was because they were keeping them luminous for their mistress. Pearls need humans to be beautiful. If they are left in a bank vault they turn yellow, next to human skin they become luminescent.
S Jewels – a secret history.

165637.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:48 am Reply with quote

According to this site, it's because of the humidity of the skin. But also,

When taking off your pearls, wipe them with a dry, lint-free cloth. The calcium carbonate in pearls dissolves in human sweat or oil from the skin, and this will diminish the pearls' luster

Must remember that.

165655.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:30 am Reply with quote

I'll just nip over to the Pearls thread with that.

165882.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:50 pm Reply with quote

This is a post from the outer regions:

Q: Where is England?
Alan Davies: Here/Between Scotland and Wales
*Alarm sounds*

A: In fact, the original England (German: Angeln; Latin: Anglia) is a peninsula in Schleswig-Holstein, close to the border between Germany and Denmark. It is believed that the Angles inhabited this region until their subsequent emigration to Great Britain.

One for the notes, maybe?

165938.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:38 pm Reply with quote

If we can stack this up, I reckon it's a great question.

Alan's reaction would be a treat.

165940.  Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:49 pm Reply with quote

I should have gone to bed some time ago, and I'll probably not be able to give it any serious thought until Sunday now.

But the basic premise is correct. I posted briefly on it "outside" in post 149441.


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