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The Road Haulage Problem

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barbados
1390976.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:08 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:


You're talking about driving tests - the backlog is in the renewal/revalidation of the CPC and medical every 5 years. These are currently taking months, and drivers cannot drive HGVs while waiting for the renewal.

PDR

Which is why Secion 88 of the road traffic act is there for.
Quote:
If you hold a Group 2 (bus or lorry) licence, your entitlement has not been suspended, revoked or refused by a traffic commissioner.

If your license has been revoked or refused by a traffic commissioner, then you really shouldn’t be driving anyway should you?

 
Brock
1390977.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:33 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:

You're talking about driving tests - the backlog is in the renewal/revalidation of the CPC and medical every 5 years. These are currently taking months, and drivers cannot drive HGVs while waiting for the renewal.


Apologies - I misunderstood.

barbados wrote:
How much actually is down to Brexit?


I've already given you figures from the ONS (14,000) and the RHA's estimate (20,000). Which one you believe is up to you.

 
barbados
1390978.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:38 am Reply with quote

Do the ONS not suggest a shortage of 800 (1400 left, 600 came in)?
But, even if it was brexit related, that was 3 months ago, there hasn’t been an issue with fuel until last week.

 
Brock
1390979.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:41 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Do the ONS not suggest a shortage of 800 (1400 left, 600 came in)?


No. 14,000 - 600 = 13,400, not 800. If you can't tell the difference between 14,000 and 1400 I don't think there's much point in discussing this.

barbados wrote:

But, even if it was brexit related, that was 3 months ago, there hasn’t been an issue with fuel until last week.


The driver shortage didn't start last week. The effects of it have been seen in various industries before now - it just happens to be hitting the fuel distribution industry particularly hard at the moment.

I suspect that the reason we haven't seen worse shortages before now is that demand was artificially depressed owing to the lockdown, but that's just guesswork.

 
barbados
1390980.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:46 am Reply with quote

Apologies misread your post, that still doesn’t explain why a shortage in June has had no impact until the end of September
I would suggest that a return to the opening post suggests wher the problem lies.

 
PDR
1390981.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:52 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
PDR wrote:


You're talking about driving tests - the backlog is in the renewal/revalidation of the CPC and medical every 5 years. These are currently taking months, and drivers cannot drive HGVs while waiting for the renewal.

PDR

Which is why Secion 88 of the road traffic act is there for.
Quote:
If you hold a Group 2 (bus or lorry) licence, your entitlement has not been suspended, revoked or refused by a traffic commissioner.

If your license has been revoked or refused by a traffic commissioner, then you really shouldn’t be driving anyway should you?


Section 88 only applies to the licence, not the CPC renewal.

PDR

 
barbados
1390990.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:04 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:


Section 88 only applies to the licence, not the CPC renewal.

PDR

Is that the CPC training (and the "card" requirement this relates to) that is available (and checkable) online? (as it has for some time now) Again, if you do not have the physical card, you can continue to drive while an updated one is being processed)

 
PDR
1390992.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:23 pm Reply with quote

You have to undertake the 5 days of refresher training and then wait for the training company to feed it through the Agency. According to those who spoke yesterday you can't drive [commercially] until the Agency has validated it. According to you they can. Given your history when it comes to facts I'm minded to accept their statements over yours.

I've also been checking the Section 88 thing. Whilst it is true, it laces an obligation on the individual to accurately and truthfully report their health, and it does not remove the general duty of care from the employer to ensure their drivers are fit, legal and capable. As a result many employers (and more to the point their insurers) are not prepared to allow drivers waiting for renewals to continue. It's just a big red "come and help yourself to our assets" button in any subsequent court case. I've checked with our own logistics function (they tell me we employ about 80 HGVc1 drivers at the moment) and they don't allow it even though we self-insure.

So I'm not that sure it helps much.

PDR

 
barbados
1390997.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:43 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
You have to undertake the 5 days of refresher training and then wait for the training company to feed it through the Agency. According to those who spoke yesterday you can't drive [commercially] until the Agency has validated it. According to you they can. Given your history when it comes to facts I'm minded to accept their statements over yours.

Given your history, perhaps you could pop a little link in to the DVSA area where you recovered that information (the agency responsible for the provision of training would suffice)
PDR wrote:
I've also been checking the Section 88 thing. Whilst it is true, it laces an obligation on the individual to accurately and truthfully report their health, and it does not remove the general duty of care from the employer to ensure their drivers are fit, legal and capable. As a result many employers (and more to the point their insurers) are not prepared to allow drivers waiting for renewals to continue. It's just a big red "come and help yourself to our assets" button in any subsequent court case.

Everyone's fitness to drive relies on the truthful reporting of health. However, as part of the professional driving license model you are required to have periodical medical examinations as part of the renewal process - this isn't something you can do if you like - it is a requirement.
So if your medical report tells you that you have a condition that restricts your driving, and you drive you are breaking the law, and your license will be revoked (there are some conditions that allow group 1 but would bar you from group 2).
Within large organisations with salaried driving staff, they would carry that examination out - and again, if they allow you to continue driving having a condition that would revoke a group 2 license, they would also be putting their operators license - which is something they be unlikely to do.
So if you are employed, and your employer carries out the medical, they would be liable should someone deemed unfit to drive continues to work. If you are an "agency" driver, and you have to provide your own medical, then you would be breaking the law if you continue to drive with a condition that would bar you from driving so it is something you would know.
What do you suppose is preventing those with license to renew, having carried out their CPC online (as is the norm now) from continuing to drive? Edit, this took a little while to absorb but when you say
Quote:
I've checked with our own logistics function (they tell me we employ about 80 HGVc1 drivers at the moment) and they don't allow it even though we self-insure.

So I'm not that sure it helps much.

PDR

What happens while the DVSA catch up.
At the moment, license renewals are currently being from 6th July, that is two weeks short of 3 months, that your employer will be standing drivers down for. They are basically giving them 3 months additional holiday entitlement - how do you feel about that?

 
Alexander Howard
1391006.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:10 pm Reply with quote

For many years, commentators and politicians have been puzzling over how to persuade people to switch to electric cars. This weekend of panicked queuing at petrol stations has solved that one: I'll be looking electric and expect crowds round the showrooms.

(At least for people with private garages or driveways - anyone else will have to keep queuing for prawn juice, or buy electric and dangle their car from an extension lead out of the window of their flat.)

 
crissdee
1391011.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:49 pm Reply with quote

As I have mentioned before, there is a significant number of people (myself and most of my friends being amongst them) for whom the question of going electric is a complete non-starter because we have no chance of financing the change.

Furthermore, I am still of the opinion that keeping an old car going is less damaging to the environment than (effectively) getting a new one of any type made for me.

 
CB27
1391012.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:59 pm Reply with quote

Changing to electric cars doesn't solve the problem, it simply shifts it.

The issue is that there are too many vehicles on the road, and in a country like the UK, which is very densely populated in urban areas, it means that some of the services have been cut to make more use of space.

What governments need to really tackle - if they're willing to take on multi billion pound industries head on, is the private ownership of vehicles.

There are over 40m vehicles in the UK. However, while I can see some reports on the number of miles driven on UK roads annually, I cannot see any report on the number of vehicles on the road at any time.

So let's assume a decently high average that all vehicles are on the move approximately 2 hours of each day (trucks, vans, buses, taxes will be more, but most vehicles will be much lower). This means the average car is only on the road 8.34% of the time. We know that some times are busier than others (peak hours), so let's multiply by 4. That would suggest that even at the busiest time only 25% of all vehicles are on the road, while the rest are simply taking up space which could be used better.

Then there are the road designs that have been built to include bus lanes, bus stops, etc, to ensure that public transport can move a little more freely, taking away yet more road space for other vehicles.

We need to come up with other solutions.

For example, one solution could be where everyone has an app on a phone (or on a public touchscreen at each street corner) which allows you to order a car from your location direct to where you need to go, with a fleet of public cars on the road, where the moment one becomes available it picks you up, and on dropping you off is available for the next ride, and that these rides are either prices through a local tax or a price system similar to a London Oyster card). It would free up a lot more of the road (and other spaces) to vans and lorries. You could either have these vehicles with drivers, or if the infrastructure is updated, have driverless cars with remote support.

 
Leith
1391014.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:17 pm Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
For many years, commentators and politicians have been puzzling over how to persuade people to switch to electric cars. This weekend of panicked queuing at petrol stations has solved that one: I'll be looking electric and expect crowds round the showrooms.

(At least for people with private garages or driveways - anyone else will have to keep queuing for prawn juice, or buy electric and dangle their car from an extension lead out of the window of their flat.)

You may well not be alone in that thought. I'm not looking at electric cars just yet, but the gas price crisis pushed me from idly toying with idea of getting solar panels installed to signing up to get quotes, possibly followed by a heat pump to replace the gas boiler.

 
barbados
1391021.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:59 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:

For example, one solution could be where everyone has an app on a phone (or on a public touchscreen at each street corner) which allows you to order a car from your location direct to where you need to go, with a fleet of public cars on the road, where the moment one becomes available it picks you up, and on dropping you off is available for the next ride, and that these rides are either prices through a local tax or a price system similar to a London Oyster card). It would free up a lot more of the road (and other spaces) to vans and lorries. You could either have these vehicles with drivers, or if the infrastructure is updated, have driverless cars with remote support.

Is there not a fatal flaw in that plan?
I work from 8 till 16:30, as do 75% or so of the other people in my office, we all live in different locations, so fo the 20 minutes it takes me to get to work, and the other 20 minutes it takes me to get home + the number of vehicles on the road remains the same, whoever owns them. So you wont reduce the number of the cars on the road - all you will do is change who owns them.
How does that solve the problem?

 
bobwilson
1391025.  Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:15 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
For example, one solution could be where everyone has an app on a phone (or on a public touchscreen at each street corner) which allows you to order a car from your location direct to where you need to go, with a fleet of public cars on the road, where the moment one becomes available it picks you up, and on dropping you off is available for the next ride, and that these rides are either prices through a local tax or a price system similar to a London Oyster card). It would free up a lot more of the road (and other spaces) to vans and lorries. You could either have these vehicles with drivers, or if the infrastructure is updated, have driverless cars with remote support.


Er - just no. PDR will no doubt be along to give an engineer's take on the chances of getting a wildly radical overhaul of a system using an entirely new paradigm to work - which would probably equate to the square root of bugger all. So just no.

 

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