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Free speech and its limitations

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barbados
1385624.  Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:07 pm Reply with quote

I would suspect that the original order was made under article 2 of the EHCR rather than article 8 which is I suspect the grounds used for Ryan Giggs.
But they are both probably covered by section 11 of the Contempt of Court act 1981 because neither are really covered by any of the other grounds for reporting restrictions (Soldier F might be a private hearing which would cover it but no one has suggested that is the reason for anonymity). And I would imagine that the penalty imposed would be more severe in the Soldier F case.

It is also noteworthy that the only paper to actually report on Giggs was the Sunday Herald, who were not restricted under the terms of the injunction - the Sun tried to report on the disclosure but failed in their attempts to get the injunction lifted so didn't report on it

 
suze
1385642.  Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:55 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
It is also noteworthy that the only paper to actually report on Giggs was the Sunday Herald, who were not restricted under the terms of the injunction - the Sun tried to report on the disclosure but failed in their attempts to get the injunction lifted so didn't report on it


While that is entirely correct, it's a different matter and entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Ryan Giggs' super-injunction covered only England and Wales. It did not cover Scotland - Scottish law does not allow for super-injunctions - and so Scottish media didn't have to abide by it so long as they were not made available for sale in England.

Now in practice, all the Scottish national newspapers are available in England. Accordingly, they didn't initially identify Mr Giggs for fear of legal problems in England. But then came the Sunday Herald, a newspaper with a tiny circulation - so tiny that it no longer exists - which decided, essentially as a publicity stunt, to devote its front page to a photograph of Mr Giggs. No explanation of that photograph was given; none was really needed. The Sunday Herald did have to ensure that no copies of that particular edition were sent to England, but the English sales were normally only a few hundred anyway so they weren't too bothered.

It was reported at the time that The Guardian was planning to publish and be damned on the Monday. Whether that was true we'll never know now, because the Sunday Herald got in a day earlier.

But all of this came to pass before John Hemming, then LibDem MP for Birmingham Ladywood, named Mr Giggs in the House of Commons. Opposing the very existence of super-injunctions was one of Mr Hemming's things, and this was not the only occasion on which he used Parliamentary privilege to say something he couldn't have said elsewhere.

As soon as Mr Hemming had spoken, all the media reported what he had said and all - incluiding the BBC website and indeed these forums - mentioned Mr Giggs' name. They were careful not to say that Mr Giggs was the person who had obtained the super-injunction, just that Mr Hemming asserted so. No legal actions followed from this. What is different as regards Soldier F?

 
barbados
1385706.  Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:55 am Reply with quote

There are huge differences between the two cases.
Ryan Giggs had been "exposed" as CTB by hundreds of people on twitter prior to John Hemming disclosing the identity to Parliament.
As yet there has been no such revelations with Soldier F.
Giggs effectively gave up with the twitter revelations because there were too many of them to keep up.

However, as I asked earlier, if you are confident that you - suze from Kent would simply be reporting what happened in Parliament, why did choose not to disclose the name?

 
suze
1385707.  Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:33 am Reply with quote

If I owned this site, I would.

The guy's name is in Hansard so it's no longer secret to the extent that it ever was.

 
barbados
1385738.  Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:06 pm Reply with quote

That then begs the question, why did you think it was ok to name Mr Giggs in post 818670 yet you don't think it appropriate to disclose the name that was attributed to Soldier F using the same privilege?

 
bobwilson
1385748.  Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:42 pm Reply with quote

It's a question of possible ramifications, imo.

More than that - it's worth looking at the history of super-injunctions and just why this mess has occurred.

Also, for what it's worth, I would have abstained from naming Mr Giggs - mostly because that matter is none of my (or indeed your) business.

 
barbados
1385749.  Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:38 pm Reply with quote

That is exactly my thoughts on the matter. Neither should (have been) named but they both were under privilege in the house of commons.

Both cases are exactly the same - if you break the reporting restrictions you are in contempt of court. The reason those that named Giggs were not pursued was because of the number of people that did it - that was the reason his name was discussed in Parliament- it was a debate on privacy and the effectiveness on super injunctions so I kind of get that. He shouldn’t have been named by anyone, but he was. Soldier F shouldn’t have been named in the house, but he was. The media have the same reporting restrictions under both but they have chosen to respect those in this case. They weren’t permitted to report previously - but they (as did this very forum) chose to ignore those restrictions.(incorrectly if you ask me)

 
CB27
1385799.  Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:16 am Reply with quote

I think there was more to it than that.

Once Giggs was named by some people, many others were willing to follow along because the injunction order itself seemed designed only to protect people with money from revealing frivolous actions.

The reason I think many people will not name soldier F is because the order was to protect lives and relates to murder charges and events that very sensitive to many people.

Whether, as is claimed by some, people already knew who soldier F was before this revelation is neither here or there, I assume the original order was due to security. The fact there were no previous retributions is also neither here of there, because for all we know some people have been held back by the concept it was the wrong identity, but by having an MP confirm the name it could give the green light to some people.

The question should not be "why shouldn't someone be named?", the question should be "why should someone be named?". What was achieved by naming soldier F in Parliament?

 
dr.bob
1385859.  Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:52 am Reply with quote

When a fact is already widely known by anyone who cares enough to find it out, what is achieved by keeping it a secret?

 
CB27
1385927.  Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:45 am Reply with quote

There could be lots of reasons.

One reason I can think of is that up to now people "thought" they knew, now a senior MP has said his name, it's like having a confirmation.

The fact several people immediately leapt to the "well, they already knew and if anyone wanted retribution they would have done it by now" argument shows how easy it is for most people to consider that scenario, and you don't know what difference confirmation of his name will make.

And it's all about where do you draw the line.

Again, if we go back to Giggs, that was a private injunction "bought" to cover a celebrity's indiscretion. The argument could be made that such injunctions should not be allowed to take place in the first place.

However, this order was on the grounds of security and safety. I think the majority of people might agree that it's right to have such orders in place where necessary, and that they should remain legal.

What if another person was being accused of a heinous crime and the judge issues a similar order to avoid vigilante "justice", and the subsequent trial proves this person innocent? What if another MP decided they believed this person is guilty and decided to say their name in public before they're proven innocent?

 
bobwilson
1385996.  Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:18 pm Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
When a fact is already widely known by anyone who cares enough to find it out, what is achieved by keeping it a secret?


That's rather naive of you dr.bob

You're ignoring the "random nutter" factor. Simon Wiesenthal may know the new identity under which Heinrich Himmler is hiding, but that is not the same as having the identity published to some hitherto keyboard warrior looking to make a splash, is it?

The real problem is that the misuse/abuse of super-injunctions has meant that there is now a deep suspicion of this weapon (the parallels with anti-biotic over-use and the rise mistrust of modern medicine is stark). IMO the lawyers who abused the super-injunction system leading to the current situation should be sanctioned, if not disbarred.

 
suze
1386024.  Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:02 am Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
Simon Wiesenthal may know the new identity under which Heinrich Himmler is hiding, but that is not the same as having the identity published to some hitherto keyboard warrior looking to make a splash, is it?


I'd hear that parallel if it were the case that only a few nameless acquaintances of Gerry Adams knew Soldier F's real name. Those shadowy people have undoubtedly known the name all the while, but once that name has appeared in Hansard - as it has - the cat is out of the bag.

Given that it's been published once, and by an organ of the state, does it really make any difference whether or not it's published all over the place?


bobwilson wrote:
The real problem is that the misuse/abuse of super-injunctions has meant that there is now a deep suspicion of this weapon.


Here I can only agree. I blame Messrs *arter-*uck, mostly.

 
bobwilson
1386054.  Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:57 pm Reply with quote

And now I see there's a petition calling to make lying in the HoC a criminal offence. No surprise really - people really haven't got the hang of this democracy malarkey yet, have they?

I recall seeing bojo saying that he believed the "great british public" could be trusted to "do the right thing" - has that guy taken a look in the mirror recently? twas the great british public what elected you - and you really want to trust them to do the right thing?

 
bobwilson
1386055.  Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:09 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
Given that it's been published once, and by an organ of the state, does it really make any difference whether or not it's published all over the place?


yes (to give the short answer) - every publication of the information widens (or possibly widens) the audience - sooner or later some obscure website that has nothing particular in common with wild (my randomiser of alcohol wants to put "wiled" there - which sort of makes sense) conspiracy theories will be visited by some random nutter who thinks a) he (it'll invariably be a "he") is sane and b) this is a message from 1) God; 2) a like, unnamed higher consciousness; 3) just shit happens / other numerous variations

Quote:
Here I can only agree. I blame Messrs *arter-*uck, mostly.


I assume the asterisks are due to your reticence in referring to them by the (wholly appropriate) epithet cast by Private Eye, this being a family-centric forum - unless there is some other legal personage of infamous lawyerly types operating under a name similar to Carter-Ruck of which I am unaware?

Because, in their case, I see no reason to even pretend at anything other than wanton hostility - not that they're the only ones culpable.

 
barbados
1386057.  Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:53 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:

Given that it's been published once, and by an organ of the state, does it really make any difference whether or not it's published all over the place?

Which raises the question why you were quite happy to name Ryan Giggs as CTB, yet you are unwilling to name Soldier F.
You’ve suggested both should been seen as the same, yet you were the first to name him here, along with an admission that the injunction preventing him from being named is still in place.
You’ve asked why the cases differ, why do they differ for you? The answer is probably the same.
For the record I have no interest in who soldier F is, similarly I had no interest in who CTB was.

 

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