View previous topic | View next topic

Sticky-backed plastic

Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

PDR
1375822.  Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:38 pm Reply with quote

"Film Adhesive" is a technical term. "Adhesive film" is a description.

PDR

 
suze
1376102.  Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:07 pm Reply with quote

In the BBC Wireless 4 broadcast which Brock mentions in the opening post, did they actually say Sellotape?

If they did, then why did we need a contestant on Masterchef this evening to say that his sauce included "yeast extract"?

Everybody knows what comes in a small and distinctively shaped jar with a yellow lid, and we did see the yellow lid. There is no other brand of yeast extract readily available in Britain, and its name is practically generic and has entered the language to mean something that you'll either like or you won't.

Would it really have been too much like advertising just to say that the sauce contained Marmite?

 
Brock
1376111.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:17 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
In the BBC Wireless 4 broadcast which Brock mentions in the opening post, did they actually say Sellotape?


It's very hard to see how the discussion could have taken place without mentioning any brand names. As I recall, the presenter (Richard Coles) made a comment that, as a child, he used to wonder what "sticky-backed plastic" referred to, and Sophie Ellis-Bextor said (wrongly) "Sellotape". A few minutes later, Coles said that this had caused something of a storm on social media, and quoted people saying that "sticky-backed plastic" was Fablon, and Sellotape was "sticky tape". Try doing that without saying "Sellotape" or "Fablon"!

Quote:
If they did, then why did we need a contestant on Masterchef this evening to say that his sauce included "yeast extract"?


Because if he'd mentioned the brand name, that would have been promoting the use of a particular brand in that recipe, and BBC guidelines forbid the promotion of commercial products. They don't forbid simply mentioning the names of commercial products, as in the earlier discussion.

 
crissdee
1376138.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:56 am Reply with quote

Brock wrote:
Because if he'd mentioned the brand name, that would have been promoting the use of a particular brand in that recipe, and BBC guidelines forbid the promotion of commercial products. They don't forbid simply mentioning the names of commercial products, as in the earlier discussion.


This makes no sense at all. You're basically saying they don't forbid mentioning the name, but you can't mention the name. How is the first instance "promoting the product" but the second isn't?

I'm not claiming the paradox is of your invention, but somewhere there is a paradox.

 
Brock
1376143.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:10 am Reply with quote

crissdee wrote:
Brock wrote:
Because if he'd mentioned the brand name, that would have been promoting the use of a particular brand in that recipe, and BBC guidelines forbid the promotion of commercial products. They don't forbid simply mentioning the names of commercial products, as in the earlier discussion.


This makes no sense at all. You're basically saying they don't forbid mentioning the name, but you can't mention the name. How is the first instance "promoting the product" but the second isn't?


Because in the first case they were presenting a recipe and recommending the use of particular ingredients. If they'd mentioned "Marmite", then the BBC would have been endorsing the use of a particular branded product in that recipe.

In the other case they were simply talking about how a children's programme used to refer to particular products many years ago. They weren't endorsing the use of Sellotape, or Fablon, or any other named product.

Seems fairly obvious to me.

Quote:
I'm not claiming the paradox is of your invention, but somewhere there is a paradox.


There are grey areas of course, but the BBC has detailed editorial guidelines on this:

https://www.bbc.com/editorialguidelines/guidelines/independence-from-external-interests/guidelines#productprominence

BBC wrote:
We need to be able to reflect the real world and this will involve referring to products and services in our output. A product can include references to organisations, to people, such as artists or performers, or to artistic works, such as films, books or musical tracks. However, there must be no undue prominence of products, services or trade marks in our content. To avoid this we must:

ensure that visual and aural references, including verbal and musical references, to products, services, trade marks, brand names and slogans are editorially justified

For the meaning of trade mark see Section 14 Independence from External Interests: 14.1.

(See Section 14 Independence from External Interests: 14.1)

make sure that the manner in which the reference is given is appropriate. Any favourable descriptions must be editorially justified. Prices and availability should not normally be discussed outside consumer review content
avoid lingering on, or showing close-ups of, brand names or logos, and use aural references sparingly unless it is editorially justified to do so
minimise references in output designed to appeal to children.

The degree of prominence that may be acceptable will depend on the context. A product that is integral to an item may justify a greater degree of exposure. Organisations who are partners must be given due attribution but this must not be unduly prominent.

 
PDR
1376144.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:27 am Reply with quote

Brock wrote:

In the other case they were simply talking about how a children's programme used to refer to particular products many years ago. They weren't endorsing the use of Sellotape, or Fablon, or any other named product.


Whilst Rev Cole wasn't endorsing sellotape and fablon by mentioning them he was "de-obfuscating" the references used to avoid endorsement by Blue Peter and thus arguably retrospectively endorsing by proxy.

PDR

[Attorney-at-Law for and on behalf of the Fallen Angel. PS - we also walk dogs]

 
crissdee
1376149.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:58 am Reply with quote

BBC wrote:
We need to be able to reflect the real world and this will involve referring to products and services in our output. A product can include references to organisations, to people, such as artists or performers, or to artistic works, such as films, books or musical tracks. However, there must be no undue prominence of products, services or trade marks in our content. To avoid this we must:

ensure that visual and aural references, including verbal and musical references, to products, services, trade marks, brand names and slogans are editorially justified

For the meaning of trade mark see Section 14 Independence from External Interests: 14.1.

(See Section 14 Independence from External Interests: 14.1)

make sure that the manner in which the reference is given is appropriate. Any favourable descriptions must be editorially justified. Prices and availability should not normally be discussed outside consumer review content
avoid lingering on, or showing close-ups of, brand names or logos, and use aural references sparingly unless it is editorially justified to do so
minimise references in output designed to appeal to children.

The degree of prominence that may be acceptable will depend on the context. A product that is integral to an item may justify a greater degree of exposure. Organisations who are partners must be given due attribution but this must not be unduly prominent.


Again, not your fault, but that really is a paragraph of utter waffle that clarifies nothing.

 
Brock
1376159.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:32 am Reply with quote

I would have thought that it was fairly clear - that the issue of "undue prominence" is an editorial decision, and is largely dependent on context.

The cases are hardly comparable. One was a live radio programme where one of the guests happened to mention a well-known brand name on air - it couldn't be edited out. There was then a reaction on social media[*], which was reflected in some brief comments on the programme. It was tangential to the main subject of discussion. I certainly wouldn't regard that as "undue prominence".

The other was a recorded TV programme whose entire subject is food and cookery. If someone had displayed the brand name of any commercial food product, or mentioned it by name, I think there would be good grounds for regarding it as "undue prominence".

Maybe showing the yellow lid was a bit cheeky though!

[*]You'll note that, in accordance with BBC guidelines, Richard Coles didn't mention the name of the social media platform.

 
crissdee
1376166.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:57 pm Reply with quote

If mentioning a product by name, as part of a recipe, on a cooking programme, is not "editorially justified", what is?

Either way, there seems to be no clear-cut guidance, just waffling around what any given editor thinks they can justify.

 
suze
1376167.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm Reply with quote

Brock wrote:
Because in the first case they were presenting a recipe and recommending the use of particular ingredients. If they'd mentioned "Marmite", then the BBC would have been endorsing the use of a particular branded product in that recipe.


It might have been seen as an endorsement if we'd actually been given the full recipe and shown how to make the dish, but we weren't. All we got was the guy telling camera that his sauce contained, among other things, Worcestershire sauce and yeast extract.

There has been a court ruling that the name "Worcestershire sauce" is generic. That ruling came about as long ago as 1876 when Messrs Lea and Perrins took another manufacturer to law for using the name, but lost the case. Anyone can market a nasty condiment made from mouldy fish under that name, and they don't even need to be in Worcestershire. By now there is no other brand made in the UK, but the company against whom L&P brought suit were making it in Birmingham.

If that 1876 case had gone the other way, and your man had had to say "fermented fish based liquid condiment", half the audience wouldn't have known what he meant. Similarly, there will be some who know precisely what Marmite is but didn't understand "yeast extract".

I think I'm arguing that the two products are comparable. There is in practice no other readily available brand, and everyone knows what it is by name but maybe not by description. After all, BBC program trails are not forced to say "Coming up later on the lowest numbered channel of the state-owned broadcaster ...", and program trails are advertisements by any other name.

 
Brock
1376174.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:30 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Similarly, there will be some who know precisely what Marmite is but didn't understand "yeast extract".


Only very unobservant people! The "Marmite" label has always had the words "yeast extract" displayed clearly below the brand name.

Marmite jar

 
crissdee
1376182.  Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:48 pm Reply with quote

Or people like me who have never bought the stuff, and hardly give the jars a second glance as I pass them on the shelves. I knew about the yeast extract thing from other sources though.

 
Brock
1376198.  Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:20 am Reply with quote

The contestant said that his recipe included "yeast extract". The stuff is available in the shops clearly labelled "yeast extract". The BBC weren't referring to it by some name that would make it difficult to identify.

But if you don't buy the stuff, I can't see why you care what the brand name is anyway.

 
PDR
1376202.  Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:28 am Reply with quote

OK, I'll set you a challenge. Go into a supermarket and/or a small corner shop and ask one of the young shelf fillers for "yeast extract". I would be surprised if at least one of them didn't either look blank or direct you to the baking isle.

I've just checked, and neither of my daughters recognised the term "yeast extract" until prompted to go into their kitchen cupboards and read the front of the marmite jar. This is not a matter of being "very unobservant" - just one of not being an OCD sufferer who compulsively reads every single piece of text on every thing they own.

PDR

 
Brock
1376214.  Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:10 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
OK, I'll set you a challenge. Go into a supermarket and/or a small corner shop and ask one of the young shelf fillers for "yeast extract". I would be surprised if at least one of them didn't either look blank or direct you to the baking isle.


So what? Masterchef is not an advertisement, and it's not there to promote any commercial product. It is BBC policy not to do so unless the mention of the name is "editorially justified". What editorial justification would there have been so for doing so in this case?

If anyone wanted to know what "yeast extract" was, they could easily google for it, and they would discover the names of various different brands, one of which (the most popular in the UK) happens to be Marmite. It's not the BBC's job to do that.

I've just done so, and discovered that Tesco has its own brand, which also happens to come in a jar with a yellow lid. Maybe it was Tesco's own brand that was being used. For the purpose of the programme, it didn't matter.

Quote:
I've just checked, and neither of my daughters recognised the term "yeast extract" until prompted to go into their kitchen cupboards and read the front of the marmite jar. This is not a matter of being "very unobservant" - just one of not being an OCD sufferer who compulsively reads every single piece of text on every thing they own.


Please withdraw that comment. I do not suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder, and I don't "own" any jars of Marmite. I don't even particularly like the stuff.[*]

I'm just observant. I've seen jars of Marmite before, and remembered that the label had "yeast extract" on it, positioned fairly prominently below the brand name. It's not just in the small print on the back of the jar.

As this previously good-humoured discussion has started to become bad-tempered, I think I'll withdraw.

[*]Nor do I particularly dislike it, which clearly makes me a counter-example to the usual cliché.

 

Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group