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Assault vs Sexual Assault - a civilised debate

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barbados
1372803.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:59 am Reply with quote

A bit I suppose, and I appreciate that there is something in the conviction rate. But I would like to think that any who are of the mind that the victim of any assault got what they deserved are in such a small group that it doesn’t actually warrant counting (probably along the lines of your suggestion that some actually do ask to be assaulted - there are probably some but few and far between)

 
dr.bob
1372804.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:01 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
I honestly do not believe that the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.


Then you might want to read this report about how the CPS was given a 60% conviction rate target (which has subsequently been dropped) resulting in a clear impetus to drop more complicated cases.

Or this article which studies the reactions of police, law students, and a control group to various rape myths, and finds that male police officers and male law students are more likely to believe that a rape victim is lying than the control group.

Or this article which states "In comparing police perceptions of victims, Bieneck and Krahé (2011) found that more blame was attributed to the victim and less to the perpetrator in sexual assault compared with robbery."

I'd invite you to do your own research and maybe challenge some of your preconceptions.

 
Jenny
1372817.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:18 pm Reply with quote

Again barb, your assertion that

barbados wrote:
the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.
I may be wrong, it is the job of the CPS to bring the case to court, it is the job of the prosecution team (as I the lawyers rather than the admin side of the cps) to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the alleged culprit(s) is(are) found guilty, and it is the responsibility of the police to investigate without any preconceptions as to whether the allegations are factual - and to proceed according to their findings.


implies that 94.3% of rape accusations are false, since they don't result in arrest, and that of the 5.7% of arrests that do result in a court appearance, and that the vast majority of those are not guilty.

It also implies that the 89% of people who report symptoms of distress after reporting a rape are mostly making it up.

How likely do you think this is?

I suggest you rethink your preconceptions.

 
suze
1372818.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:21 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
I honestly do not believe that the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.


For the avoidance of doubt, did you in fact mean this sentence as written? Or should we read nothing as anything?

 
CB27
1372825.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:38 pm Reply with quote

From the CPS' own website:

Quote:
Every charging decision is based on the same two-stage test in the Code for Crown Prosecutors:

* Does the evidence provide a realistic prospect of conviction? That means, having heard the evidence, is a court more likely than not to find the defendant guilty? And;
* Is it in the public interest to prosecute? That means asking questions including how serious the offence is, the harm caused to the victim, the impact on communities and whether prosecution is a proportionate response.


In other words, they consider the likelihood of someone being found guilty, despite not knowing who will be on the jury, and not listening to the juries debate...

 
barbados
1372831.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:52 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
barbados wrote:
I honestly do not believe that the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.


For the avoidance of doubt, did you in fact mean this sentence as written? Or should we read nothing as anything?

Yes. too many negatives there.
If anyone wants me, I'll be in the corner with the pointy hat on :)

 
barbados
1372832.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:59 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Again barb, your assertion that

barbados wrote:
the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.
I may be wrong, it is the job of the CPS to bring the case to court, it is the job of the prosecution team (as I the lawyers rather than the admin side of the cps) to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the alleged culprit(s) is(are) found guilty, and it is the responsibility of the police to investigate without any preconceptions as to whether the allegations are factual - and to proceed according to their findings.


implies that 94.3% of rape accusations are false, since they don't result in arrest, and that of the 5.7% of arrests that do result in a court appearance, and that the vast majority of those are not guilty.

It also implies that the 89% of people who report symptoms of distress after reporting a rape are mostly making it up.

How likely do you think this is?

I suggest you rethink your preconceptions.

It does no such thing.
It shows nothing more than there has been no arrest. That can be down to a number of things - if the culprit for example is masked, and leaves no DNA, who would you arrest?
The reason why the "vast majority"* of court cases result in a not guilty verdict is because the prosecution did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty.
*for "vast majority", note the rolling average of convictions for rape is somewhere around 58% which would suggest that the majority of cases end in a conviction

Edit its actually between 59% & 60%
https://www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/data/key_measures/Key-Measures-Q1-Q3-2018-19.xlsx (last figures available)

 
barbados
1372838.  Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:48 pm Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
barbados wrote:
I honestly do not believe that the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously.


Then you might want to read this report about how the CPS was given a 60% conviction rate target (which has subsequently been dropped) resulting in a clear impetus to drop more complicated cases.

If that is the case, and the CPS are partaking in victim blaming because set had an additional target above the (then) standard of 50% chance of getting a conviction, then why do we not "blame" the the victims of hate crime, who at the same time had a higher target set?
dr.bob wrote:

Or this article which studies the reactions of police, law students, and a control group to various rape myths, and finds that male police officers and male law students are more likely to believe that a rape victim is lying than the control group.

Perhaps that is why female officers are the go to officers that deal with the victims of such crime - nothing to do with blaming, more to do with the ability to show more empathy.
dr.bob wrote:

Or this article which states "In comparing police perceptions of victims, Bieneck and Krahé (2011) found that more blame was attributed to the victim and less to the perpetrator in sexual assault compared with robbery."

Interesting reading it would be interesting to read the Bieneck and Krahé paper, as it is cited in a couple of other papers that seem to contradict the abstract, and seems to have sources that date back to less informed times. I'm not going to contradict what you read into the Rachel Vanema paper, although I would suggest there are others out there.

I'd invite you to do your own research and maybe challenge some of your preconceptions.[/quote]
Thank you for your advice, even if it slightly patronising.
I don't just get up in the morning and make a decision you know ;P

 
dr.bob
1372871.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:04 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
But I would like to think that any who are of the mind that the victim of any assault got what they deserved are in such a small group that it doesn’t actually warrant counting


I would also love to think that was the case. I would also love to think that all rape victims had full confidence in the justice system, that all branches of the justice system did their absolute best for the victim, and that all bad people ended up being punished for their crimes.

Sadly I live in the real world and realise that it falls far short of that. You might realise that too if you ever actually bothered to research the reality of the world around you.

barbados wrote:
It shows nothing more than there has been no arrest. That can be down to a number of things - if the culprit for example is masked, and leaves no DNA, who would you arrest?


What proportion of rape accusations fit into this category?

Given that the majority of attackers are known to their victims, it seems to me that you're just pulling random scenarios out of the air to deflect from the crassness of your statement. In the victims' commissioner's annual report she mentions how the 60% conviction target of the CPS lead to police officers reporting that fewer cases were being referred to the CPS because they knew the CPS were prosecuting fewer cases. She also notes that many victims "withdraw their complaints as they cannot face the unwarranted and unacceptable intrusion into their privacy."

Unless you can give a convincing explanation (with evidence to back them up) for all of the 94.3% of rape accusations that don't lead to an arrest, then Jenny is right to conclude what she did from what you said.

 
dr.bob
1372872.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:09 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
If that is the case, and the CPS are partaking in victim blaming


You appear to be confused. My comment was not about victim blaming. I had moved on to address your comment that "the CPS and the police do nothing other than take the victim f a sexual assault extremely seriously." I was simply highlighting how the justice system failed victims. Nothing to do with victim blaming in this case.

barbados wrote:
Perhaps that is why female officers are the go to officers that deal with the victims of such crime - nothing to do with blaming


Again, I was talking about the victims not being believed, not referring to victim blaming. I'm really not sure how you got this confused.

barbados wrote:
it would be interesting to read the Bieneck and Krahé paper


Please do so.

barbados wrote:
as it is cited in a couple of other papers that seem to contradict the abstract


Such as?

barbados wrote:
and seems to have sources that date back to less informed times.


I'm not sure what "sources" you're referring to here, especially as you say you haven't read it yet.

barbados wrote:
I'm not going to contradict what you read into the Rachel Vanema paper


What an odd thing to say. I didn't "read into" the Vanema paper. I simply quoted from it.

barbados wrote:
although I would suggest there are others out there.


Then please provide some.

 
Brock
1372873.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:34 am Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
From the CPS' own website:

Quote:
Every charging decision is based on the same two-stage test in the Code for Crown Prosecutors:

* Does the evidence provide a realistic prospect of conviction? That means, having heard the evidence, is a court more likely than not to find the defendant guilty? And;
* Is it in the public interest to prosecute? That means asking questions including how serious the offence is, the harm caused to the victim, the impact on communities and whether prosecution is a proportionate response.


In other words, they consider the likelihood of someone being found guilty, despite not knowing who will be on the jury, and not listening to the juries debate...


Blimey. You mean they don't take into account whether the defendant actually committed the crime or not?

Well thanks for posting that. I now know why the CPS wasted months and months trying to prove that I committed a crime that I clearly couldn't have committed. It wasn't because they thought I was guilty, it's because they thought they could persuade a court that I was.

Something is very wrong with the system if that's how it genuinely operates.

 
CB27
1372883.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:16 pm Reply with quote

As I understand it, the police are the ones who investigate a crime and hand it over to the CPS, so at that point it's not about proving your innocence, that's for a trial.

If the CPS think that either the evidence or other conditions are enough to suggest there is little or no hope for a conviction, or that the crime itself is not serious enough for a trial, then they don't put it forward.

I don't know what your situation was, but I assume the police gave enough evidence to the CPS to suggest it was a serious enough crime, and that, pending evidence presented at the trial, they thought there was a reasonable chance of conviction.

 
Brock
1372885.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:37 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:

I don't know what your situation was, but I assume the police gave enough evidence to the CPS to suggest it was a serious enough crime, and that, pending evidence presented at the trial, they thought there was a reasonable chance of conviction.


So who decides? The police or the CPS?

I made a statement to the police, as required; but I had no dealings with the CPS whatsoever.

 
Brock
1372888.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:08 pm Reply with quote

franticllama wrote:
Also, mock juries and experimental research on their decision making is a thing.


I know. The Ministry of Justice does it here as well. There are two fatal flaws:

(1) The people who take part in those experiments are volunteers. The people who take part in actual trials are conscripts.

(2) The people who take part in those experiments know that the consequences of their actions will not result in anyone going to jail or being punished in any way.

That is a HUGE difference.

 
crissdee
1372893.  Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:25 pm Reply with quote

Brock wrote:
So who decides? The police or the CPS?

I made a statement to the police, as required; but I had no dealings with the CPS whatsoever.


My understanding is that you never would, whatever the facts of the matter. The CPS are there only to decide whether there is a basis for a trial, your opinion counts for nothing.

 

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