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CB27
1351599.  Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:59 am Reply with quote

I have family connections in that part of the world, so it helped, but I'm guessing others are still stumped...

 
Jenny
1351611.  Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:32 pm Reply with quote

Sounds like Maine to me!

 
tetsabb
1351614.  Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:39 pm Reply with quote

I am suspecting that Mr Howard's challenge may refer to a Caribbean island, and will even plump for Jamaica.

 
suze
1351622.  Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:41 pm Reply with quote

It is indeed Jamaica. The three counties of Jamaica were supposedly named Cornwall because it was in the west, Middlesex because it was in the middle, and Surrey because it contained Kingston.

While plenty of countries divide themselves into counties or something very similar, I don't believe that anywhere except Jamaica lifted all of its county names straight from the Old Country.

 
PDR
1351624.  Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:58 pm Reply with quote

Returning to the thread title - I gather they make a decent pint, although some say it's only available in the 4 dimension (I think that's Bull).

PDR

 
tetsabb
1351644.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:32 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
It is indeed Jamaica.


Yay!
Do I get points, or permission to vacate the Nughty Step for a while?
😉

 
suze
1351665.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:39 am Reply with quote

Points, certainly.

I am not Ye Official Comptroller of the Naughty Step, so permission to vacate it is not within my gift.


I'm still keen to hear from Alexander or anyone else on whether or not the City of London was historically in any county. Was it a County Of Itself in the same way as (for instance) Bristol, or was it "in Middlesex, sort of" as the good husband tends to think?

 
tetsabb
1351669.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:03 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
I am not Ye Official Comptroller of the Naughty Step, so



But who is?
😉

 
CB27
1351678.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:26 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
I'm still keen to hear from Alexander or anyone else on whether or not the City of London was historically in any county. Was it a County Of Itself in the same way as (for instance) Bristol, or was it "in Middlesex, sort of" as the good husband tends to think?


As I understand it, Bristol and the City of London, and several others were made County Corporate to give them some autonomy from their surrounding county.

In London, this was the case since 1132, but I think in 1965 it was renamed as a ceremonial county.

Bristol was corporate since 1373, but it was expanded in the 16th century and then at some point absorbed into the greater county before regaining it's ceremonial county status in the 1990s.

 
PDR
1351680.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:34 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
suze wrote:
I am not Ye Official Comptroller of the Naughty Step, so



But who is?
😉


No one - We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We're taking turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week, but all the decisions *of* that officer 'ave to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority, in the case of more major actions.

No, I won't shut up!

OUCH! - Now you see the violence inherent in the system!

Help, Help - I'm being repressed!!

 
Alexander Howard
1351681.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:16 pm Reply with quote

According to the Historic Counties Trust and Wikishire, the City of London is part of Middlesex. Likewise, Bristol is divided between Somerset and Gloucestershire, along the River Avon and the Floating Harbour.

London has been self-governing probably since Saxon times. William the Bastard granted a charter to London confirming its existing rights (which is an interesting charter in that it is written in English not Latin and by an English scribe not a Frenchman: you can tell from the shapes of the letters).

 
suze
1351697.  Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:59 pm Reply with quote

Thanks CB27 and Alexander.

As longer standing readers will know, the counties of England (in particular) are very much one of the good husband's "things". His dissertation for his Masters degree was about local government structures, but it doesn't really start until 1855 and the Metropolitan Board of Works.

There is an opening two page essay about the world before 1855, but it rather skirts around London. He wrote that essay 30+ years ago, but doesn't really deny that the skirting was deliberate because the City of London was weird. It was a bit of a Schrödinger's county, both in and not in Middlesex depending on who was asking and why they wanted to know.

If I'd written that dissertation I might even have used the phrase sui generis, and I see that Dr Guy Barry once of this Parish did use that term when we covered this topic once before. The good husband isn't quite so pretentious.

Anyways, we can move on from the question. London was a special case. It was a county corporate before that term was invented, and pre-1855 references to Middlesex often mean "Middlesex and the City of London" in a "Wales and Monmouthshire" sort of a way.

"Is Wikishire still more or less a front for Russell Grant?" is the other question on the good man's lips.

 
Alexander Howard
1351699.  Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:46 am Reply with quote

I prefer the local government structures of the Stuart era: magistrates appointed from the great landowners, and petty justice meted out by negotiation and 'rough music'.

As for Wikishire and Russell Grant - no. I have exchanged emails with Russell Grant, and I introduced him to Wikishire! I don't know if he has ever contributed to it.

 
suze
1351712.  Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 am Reply with quote

Thanks, that's interesting.

The good husband has a bit of a bee in his bonnet about Russell Grant. The main reason for that lies in cricket and the 1990s and we don't need to go there, any more than we need to go into past disagreements between the Association of British Counties (founder: Mr R Grant) and the Middlesex Federation (founder: Mr R Grant). It's fair to say that Mr Grant is a little eccentric - but hey, he's an astrologer so one would expect nothing else!


The Historic Counties Trust ought to be more credible, but unfortunately its material tends to be less accurate. Those "Historic County Descriptions" to which you link read in the style of a Victorian gazetteer.

That was probably deliberate and it's absolutely fine. The Victorian gazetteer is a much under-rated form, but it needs to be accurate and all too often those descriptions aren't. There has been no coal mining in Kent since 1989, so the present tense should not be used in mentioning it. Kesteven is west of Holland. And so on.

 
Alexander Howard
1364388.  Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:34 am Reply with quote

Since the last posting it looks as if the Gazetteer of British Place-names has been getting an upgrade:

http://gazetteer.org.uk/search?type=em&place=Lancashire#hco

I don't know how many counties have the new all-colour style of article. It looks good though. The other county descriptions (over which Suze cast a critical eye, with good reason) have had a little spruce up too, even if on occasion they still read like the Victorian gazetteer they may have been adapted from.

 

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