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Turf wars over TERF

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Spike
1354352.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:42 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
wanting to escape the burden of expectations imposed upon masculinity?


Personally I have been trying to escape from the burden of expectations imposed by femininity all my life. I feel they are much the worse, and exacerbated by the relative powerlessness of women (which I admit is decreasing, at least in some places, for some classes...).

 
Alexander Howard
1354368.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:32 am Reply with quote

I'm agreeing with the comments in reply, by the way.

The limiting expectations imposed on femininity are cruel and I am pleased that my daughter has ambitions beyond those expectations, and her own ambitions, not my ambitions for her.

The expectations of masculinity are of another order, encouraging ambition and aggression and responsibility going beyond what the individual may feel himself capable of or wanting; maybe that is what is off-putting? I can only guess though.

 
Jenny
1354397.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:55 am Reply with quote

I absolutely hear what Cele says about the scariness of going through with radical surgeries, and I'm sympathetic to it. The only MTF people I've known have very much presented as women in dress and manner but I have no idea whether they've gone through surgery or not and it seems rude to ask.

According to a link from the Wiki article about Transgender,

Quote:
The results show that the incidence figures remain constant over time and that the incidence of primary/genuine transsexualism is equally common in men and women. A larger group consisting of all those individuals who had applied for sex reassignment revealed a preponderance of men.

 
dr.bob
1354406.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:17 am Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
The few people I've personally met (and those I've read about or seen interviewed) who actually identify as a different sex do so from a deep serious need to do so, and are not looking to convince anyone that they're something they're not. I've read the worry many people have about trans gender people using toilets, or being in certain institutions, such as prison, and using their claim of trans gender as an excuse to get close to women an abuse, but in all these years I've only ever heard of one account where this is claimed to have happened.


This is at the heart of why this is such a delicate subject. The vast, vast majority of trans people have a really shitty time of it. They suffer years of self-denial, followed by more years of ridicule and insensitivity even from people they thought they were close to. To actually forge a new identity as a different gender is a deeply painful and traumatic thing. These people have no interest in gaining access to gender-specific areas just for some pervy thrill. It comes from a deep seated need to live true to themselves.

As you say, there has been one high-profile account of someone abusing their trans gender identity. People behaving like this are very unrepresentative of the trans community and are vanishingly small in number. So you can understand why trans people can be very defensive if they're dismissed as simply acting like this tiny minority.

However, the fact that there's at least one case of this happening means that the number of people behaving in this way is non-zero. We have laws against murder even though the vast majority of people do not commit murder. We have rules and regulations to control football hooligans even though the vast majority of football supporters are not hooligans. Sadly we need to regulate against the worst examples of any cohort even if the vast majority of people in that group are perfectly peaceful, law-abiding folk who feel that such rules reflect badly on them.

 
Jenny
1354414.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:40 am Reply with quote

There was a British person whose name I can't recall who was physically male but self-identified as female, was put in a women's prison, and abused other prisoners, which is possibly the person you're recalling, dr.bob.

There was also Jessica Yaniv in Canada, who lost a court case when she sued a beautician for refusing to wax her male genitals.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/23/canadian-transgender-woman-loses-case-against-beauticians-refused/

I agree that abuse is rare and it is unfair to tag all transgender people with that thought but the fact that it happens is, as dr.bob says, something that gives the conservative people among us pause. I wonder if it is simply a matter of time, as it has been for the acceptance of LBGTQ identities generally, which would have been almost unthinkable sixty years ago.

I also wonder how a FTM transgender person would fare in a men's prison, and I know of at least a couple of prisons that are building special units for transgender people.

 
dr.bob
1354463.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:00 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
I also wonder how a FTM transgender person would fare in a men's prison,


Not well:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/transgender-woman-jenny-swift-found-dead-at-doncaster-prison
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34869620
https://www.aclu.org/blog/lgbt-rights/criminal-justice-reform-lgbt-people/new-york-jail-forced-trans-woman-mens-facility

Jenny wrote:
and I know of at least a couple of prisons that are building special units for transgender people.


Which is a good move. Personally my worry about such things is that, given that trans people account for 0.2% of the prison population, it will be all too easy for some right-wing politicians to portray such moves as an extravagant waste of money.

Or, if trans units turn out to be less violent or in some way preferable to normal prison, there will be an incentive for prisoners to try and cheat the system by falsely claiming to be transgender.

 
crissdee
1354478.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:20 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Investigations into this latest death will no doubt look at how Jenny Swift was placed in custody and whether Doncaster as a menís prison was the right place for her to be.


Am I missing something here? Isn't the answer (in this particular case at least) staring us in the face?

 
dr.bob
1354502.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:40 am Reply with quote

You'd think, and yet....

 
Jenny
1354506.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:35 am Reply with quote

As I understand the story, Jenny Swift was a mtf transgender person, and was treated as her biological sex rather than her gender identity. She was thus denied the hormones that suppressed her testosterone levels and felt very ill in consequence. This may have happened because of the previous incident where a mtf transgender person was placed in a woman's prison and ended up abusing some of the inmates.

What I was wondering though, is what would happen to a ftm transgender inmate. Seems a recipe for disaster to put him into a men's prison.

 
PDR
1354507.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:26 pm Reply with quote

Surely the main effort should be targeted at discouraging people from committing crimes that get them sent to prison - then there wouldn't be a problem.

Fix the problem at source.

PDR

 
barbados
1354509.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:42 pm Reply with quote

It isn't as simple as that.
Sometimes people get taken down a road they really would prefer not to travel.

 
CB27
1354516.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:12 pm Reply with quote

A5 to Milton Keynes?

 
barbados
1354519.  Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:33 pm Reply with quote

I would suggest any road that heads to Milton Keynes is not going to be a first choice.
Although as a half full kind of guy, the A5 also takes you out of MK

 
CB27
1383607.  Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:27 am Reply with quote

Rather than kick off another discussion thread, I thought I'd check in here about the decision by New Zealand to send Laurel Hubbard, a transgender woman, to represent them in the women's weight lifting competition.

Now, according to rules set by the IOC, Hubbard has qualified because she was able to show a lower testosterone level than the requirement, and this takes a lot of sacrifice, bravery and work, so I have a lot of respect for Hubbard for meeting those rules as set, and she should be allowed to compete without some of the comments and criticisms levelled against her I've seen in some places.

However, I have to admit I don't particularly agree with the IOC rules, and I think they certainly need to be questioned.

Testosterone is certainly a contributor to performance, and I understand that's how the IOC and others wanted to approach the issue of transgender athletes because it's easier and simpler to identify and control, but the truth is that there are long term effects of testosterone levels, and the build up of bone and muscle mass when transgender women were technically male contributes greatly to their athletic ability.

Different disciplines are impacted at different levels, but when you look at both records and average top marks set at different disciplines, the different between men and women may be just a few percentage points for some events, or they can be over 20% difference in others.

 
Jenny
1383617.  Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:52 am Reply with quote

Things like that are exactly the issues that TERFs are raising, and I have some sympathy for those concerns.

In many sports, there is a great deal of advantage attached to being taller and more muscular. That means because of early development and the effects of pubertal hormones (assuming the transition happens after puberty) ftm transgender people would be disadvantaged in most sports, but mtf transgender people would have a distinct advantage. Is it right for women whose gender identity matches their biological sex to be disadvantaged that way?

 

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