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Turf wars over TERF

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franticllama
1351115.  Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:58 am Reply with quote

In a lighthearted detour - I am aware there is at least one police station in London that has dealt with the issue of female changing rooms in a novel manner. The females use the near side door whilst the men go round the long way - to enter the same changing room just from a different angle. This seemed to be the best available option since there were too many female officers to fit into the store cupboard that had originally been used.

 
suze
1351129.  Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:22 pm Reply with quote

Ah, the Truro Cathedral solution!

A few years back, the Elves were researching cathedrals. Most cathedrals are not also parish churches. Among other things, this means that you can't get married in St Paul's just because it's your nearest church. In fact, no one can get married in St Paul's except by special permission of the AB of C.

For arcane historical reasons, a handful of cathedrals are also parish churches, but Truro is in Cornwall and does things in its own way. Truro Cathedral is not a parish church, but Truro Parish Church is the same building as Truro Cathedral. Which you are considered to be in depends upon which door you entered by!

(I learned this from my stepson-in-law. He believed that it was a ruse, devised so that Privileged Tinners had to use the tradesmen's entrance rather than the posh door. If you want to know why this was important you'll need to do the degree majoring in English Social History that he did!)

 
Alexander Howard
1351143.  Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:01 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Perhaps you have sources for the common usage of "wereman" but I have to say I've never come across it before, and I'm fairly well read, so I can't believe it to be all that common. Hence 'wifman' - the woman only exists in terms of her relationship to the man.


Bosworth & Toller is the best source. It gets a bit complicated over a few centuries of shifting dialects, but essentially 'wer' means 'male person':
http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b1205.html

- although it is homonymous with the words for ''guard' and weir', which are not the same derivation. Just to be difficult, a plural, 'ware' is used for just "people" (which you'll find in tribal names; the 'var' in 'Bavaria' is from that source).

The word "mann" means "person" irrespective of sex:

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0668.html

Another word, 'manna' seems to mean male person:
http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oe_bosworthtoller/b0669.html

The words "wif", "wifa" and "wifmann" all mean "woman". The form "wifmann" doesn't define her by reference to a (male) man it just indicates 'female-person'.

The word "wif" is neuter gender, while "wifmann" and "wifa" are masculine. That's just grammar.

In Danish, Norwegian and Swedish of course (but not Ny-Norsk, Trøndsk etc), the feminine gender has practically disappeared so nouns are Common or Neuter (but Norwegian at least, a few nouns remain Feminine).

 
crissdee
1351146.  Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:57 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
............... you can't get married in St Paul's just because it's your nearest church. In fact, no one can get married in St Paul's except by special permission of the AB of C..............


I have some vague memory that some otherwise anonymous couple were mentioned in the media as being the last couple to marry in St Paul's before Charles and Diana. They expressed their surprise that their nuptuals were allowed to go ahead only days before the Royal wedding. Have things changed since? Or did they have "connections"?

 
suze
1351150.  Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:19 pm Reply with quote

Possibly there was an MBE in the family.

The Chapel of the Order of the British Empire is at St Paul's. As a consequence, holders of the *BE and the children thereof may apply to the AB of C for permission to marry there. There are a few others who may also apply for such permission:

"In addition to the weddings of members of the Cathedral community which take place here at St Paul’s, the privilege is also extended to members of the Order of St Michael and St George, the Order of the British Empire, holders of the British Empire Medal, members of the Imperial Society of Knights Bachelor, and their children (but not grandchildren)." (source)

Members of the Order of the Bath have similar privileges at Westminster Abbey.

 
Jenny
1354056.  Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:53 am Reply with quote

A thought occurred to me today, and this is the best forum I know to share it in where I am unlikely to get jumped on.

We're asked to accept that a man who self-identifies as a woman is a woman, and that this gets him access to woman-only spaces and on woman-only shortlists.

I struggle with this, and have to ask the question, was Rachel Dolezal black? And if she, who self-identified as black despite having no African ancestry, was not black, how is someone who has male chromosomes and who declines hormonal treatment or surgery supposed to be a woman? What is it about femininity that he is identifying with?

 
Alexander Howard
1354095.  Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:11 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
What is it about femininity that he is identifying with?


Well I imagine that childbirth, periods and being constantly looked up and down and being treated like a piece of meat must be a real draw.

It may be more a revulsion at being associated one of those hairy, smelly, apelike creatures called men, or (if they are being honest) fear of the responsibilities which come with being a man.

 
PDR
1354097.  Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
It may be more a revulsion at being associated one of those hairy, smelly, apelike creatures called men, or (if they are being honest) fear of the responsibilities which come with being a man.


I vehemently object to that sexist slur. I am NOT hairy and I must demand that you either withdraw the accusation or name your Second.

PDR

 
crissdee
1354098.  Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:54 pm Reply with quote

And I'm not......errrrr......not.........oh, never mind........

 
CB27
1354315.  Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:47 pm Reply with quote

As much as I would still defend women only spaces that might not want to include trans gender people because of the emotional impact it can have on the residents, I personally have no issue with people who don't go through with physical therapies to change gender and still wanting to identify as a particular gender in most scenarios. Physical change is incredibly scary and life changing.

The few people I've personally met (and those I've read about or seen interviewed) who actually identify as a different sex do so from a deep serious need to do so, and are not looking to convince anyone that they're something they're not. I've read the worry many people have about trans gender people using toilets, or being in certain institutions, such as prison, and using their claim of trans gender as an excuse to get close to women an abuse, but in all these years I've only ever heard of one account where this is claimed to have happened.

There are some similarities and dissimilarities to someone identifying themselves as part of another culture.

With perhaps the exception of Kirk Lazarus, I'm not aware of many people going to such lengths as colouring their skin to be accepted into another culture, it's usually about emulating and claiming that culture for themselves.

If we look at Dolezal as an example, let's also look at Eminem. Here we have two white people who appropriated what many people regard as a black cultural style. Many black people have complained about Eminem being white, so it's definitely been an issue to people, yet while he's appropriated the style and music, he's always been honest about who he is, and why he uses a certain style and music, he's not tried to mislead people like Dolezal did.

Eminem became successful as a white man, not as someone pretending to be black, so he didn't cheat black musicians who sold less records.

Dolezal definitely used the lie of being black to get positions she wasn't qualified for, claim welfare, and gain notoriety.

 
Alexander Howard
1354331.  Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:46 pm Reply with quote

It's an interesting one. I don't know anyone in that position, so I can happily say that any theories I have are no more than supposition or guesswork.

I gather that overwhelmingly it is men wanting to be women rather than the other way round.

You suggest (as I read it) that it is not so much men actually thinking that they are women, as a delusion, but wanting to be treated as if they were women, and feeling more sympathy with what are seen as feminine characteristics. That is more logical. Then you have to ask what convinces them that their individual character is not consistent with masculinity. Is that is a perception of masculinity (which is the fault of the stereotypes it implies), or wanting to escape the burden of expectations imposed upon masculinity? It may be very different in different people though.

We are all individuals, affected by sex, physical characteristics and culture, but not defined by their every preconception.

 
crissdee
1354349.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:33 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
.... it is not so much men actually thinking that they are women, as a delusion....


I, personally, am a little uncomfortable with that assertion, identifying it as a "delusion" I mean. I have never experienced the feeling that I am in the "wrong" body, but for those who do, it is unfair to dismiss it as a delusion. I imagine it is both confusing and terrifying to feel like that, and to write it off as something they can address by "coming to their senses" or something is unsympathetic at best, and heartless at worst.

 
Spike
1354351.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:38 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:


I gather that overwhelmingly it is men wanting to be women rather than the other way round.



Where do you gather that from? I can find no statistics on numbers of Trans men vs Trans women. My impression (from articles and interviews with trans people) is that Trans men (i.e. men born as apparent women) are probably the more common.

 
Spike
1354352.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:42 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
wanting to escape the burden of expectations imposed upon masculinity?


Personally I have been trying to escape from the burden of expectations imposed by femininity all my life. I feel they are much the worse, and exacerbated by the relative powerlessness of women (which I admit is decreasing, at least in some places, for some classes...).

 
Alexander Howard
1354368.  Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:32 am Reply with quote

I'm agreeing with the comments in reply, by the way.

The limiting expectations imposed on femininity are cruel and I am pleased that my daughter has ambitions beyond those expectations, and her own ambitions, not my ambitions for her.

The expectations of masculinity are of another order, encouraging ambition and aggression and responsibility going beyond what the individual may feel himself capable of or wanting; maybe that is what is off-putting? I can only guess though.

 

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