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Another quandary for Mr Johnson, this time in Cantonese

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PDR
1349919.  Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:11 pm Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:

I largely agree with your point, but surely there's a limit to how much a foreign country can do to help. You mentioned that they should complain that the rest of China wasn't granted freedoms similar to Hong Kong. How much sway would the UK have to force China to change its entire system of government?


Playing Devil's Junior Counsel - would that not be one nation imposing its values and beliefs on another? Is that a moral thing to do, or do they have any right to develop and determine their own life choices?

Admittedly this argument struggles a bit when the "victim" is an authoritarian regime, but that just says the chinese people should have the right to choose. They don't *have* to choose our political system if they don't want to.

PDR

 
suze
1349922.  Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:22 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
Admittedly this argument struggles a bit when the "victim" is an authoritarian regime, but that just says the chinese people should have the right to choose. They don't *have* to choose our political system if they don't want to.


Were they ever actually asked?

Now, I know that authoritarian regimes have on occasion been elected, and a couple of those elections weren't even fixed. But they are the exception to the rule, and most authoritarian regimes came to power either by force of arms or by being born to it.

There is an argument which says that it is impossible for a country with such a vast population as China has to be a democracy. Proponents of that argument usually point to China, or to Russia which did briefly try being a democracy and didn't really like it.

Of the other countries with vast populations, the likes of Brazil, Indonesia, and Pakistan alternate between being democracies of a sort and absolutely not being. Let's ignore the United States of America because Americans get cross if they are told that their country isn't a democracy, but how about India?

No one would claim that India is as democratic a nation as Norway or even the UK, and it does have a massive problem with corruption - but elections there are more or less honest, and they haven't had a military coup since independence. If India can, anywhere can.

 
barbados
1349927.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:10 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
barbados wrote:
I'd guess the figure would be approximately 56%


That is a remarkably specific guess! All the same, it might be a pretty good guess, if a bit lower than I was thinking.

Or does the remarkably specific guess come from a poll which has in fact been done while I wasn't looking?

Ok, you got me. It was a poll that took place in April ;)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229651/Britons-believe-China-blame-coronavirus-outbreak-poll-finds.html

 
Awitt
1349928.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:09 am Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
Apropos CB's post

I was astonished to read that Maine's population is some 1.3 million people - in an area that is 1/3rd the size of the UK.

Seems to be plenty of room there?


While I don't know much about the landscape of Maine, it's the same as overseas people pointing the finger at Australia and saying 'such a big country, you can fit more (people/residents) in?'

Except that a large part of the central area is sandy desert, largely uninhabited and uninhabitable.
And the towns that are there have to live through years of droughts and other things.
I often wonder if some of those in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria were actually settled when there might have been a year or two of good rainfall, but it's largely drought most the time.

From our Bureau of Statistics:
Quote:
Did you know more than 90% of our population lives within 100km of the coast making us one of the world’s most urbanised coastal dwelling populations?

 
PDR
1349932.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:53 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:

Ok, you got me. It was a poll that took place in April ;)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229651/Britons-believe-China-blame-coronavirus-outbreak-poll-finds.html


Did you check it on snopes...

<gd&r>

PDR

 
barbados
1349935.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:16 am Reply with quote

No, I checked it on the daily mail website, and they confirmed it as true - the daily mail did carry out a survey as described on their website.
It was however authenticated and verified by a more scientific feature in Vanity Fair

:P

 
crissdee
1349937.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:34 am Reply with quote

Awitt wrote:
......overseas people pointing the finger at Australia and saying 'such a big country, you can fit more (people/residents) in?......


Which reminds me of that shipload of refugees a few years ago, that was sailing around, trying to find somewhere they could land. On reaching Austrailia, the conversation went something like:

Refugees. "Can we come in?"
Austrailia. "No"
R. "Please?"
A. "No, go away."
R. "But you've got loads of room to spare"
A. "Yes we have, but we like it like that. Go away."

 
Spike
1349941.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:08 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
barbados wrote:

Ok, you got me. It was a poll that took place in April ;)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229651/Britons-believe-China-blame-coronavirus-outbreak-poll-finds.html


Did you check it on snopes...

<gd&r>

PDR


No need. We all know the Daily Fail isn't a reliable source...

 
barbados
1349942.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:19 am Reply with quote

I do believe the publication in question was selected by suze for it’s specific demographic.
I would agree with suze’s suggestion that the 56% figure returned by the survey is lower than would be expected - however I would direct more to the very low figure for the “no” response (mid 20s). Which is probably more reflective of the figure she was looking for.

 
Alexander Howard
1349951.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:34 am Reply with quote

The meaning of 'China is to blame' depends on your idiolect, your philosophical outlook and your habits of personification.

The disease began in China, but 'China' is a geographical area or a state, not a person to whom moral turpitude can be attributed, but some people speak as if it could. That does not mean that they personally blame the people making up the Government of China, though they might, and failures by that government certainly contributed.

Likewise 'blame' means different things to different people: actual, person responsibility; or 'could have done things differently'; or just lashing out at mere cussed chance.

For some, blaming 'China' may mean more - thinking it was a deliberate act (which is ludicrous but justifies in their mind the need to attach blame to chance).

Even if you can tie down every definition, the question 'Is China [however defined] to blame [however defined]', you are asking a binary question of a long sliding scale.

 
suze
1349955.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:59 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
I do believe the publication in question was selected by suze for its specific demographic.


It was of course, although I had no idea that it had really done the poll that I suggested.

As for whether the Daily Mail is a reliable source, well in general not really - but it is a reliable source for itself. Unlike certain politicians, I don't believe it has ever been caught trying to deny that it said something that it demonstrably did say.

If you were able to sit down with Geordie Greig and ask unto him "Did the Daily Mail support fascism in the 1930s, or did it not?", he would look uncomfortable and shuffle in his seat - but he would acknowledge that it did. Contrast with those politicians who have denied making remarks of which there is irrefutable evidence.


Alexander Howard wrote:
For some, blaming 'China' may mean more - thinking it was a deliberate act (which is ludicrous but justifies in their mind the need to attach blame to chance).


While the suggestion that it was a deliberate act is indeed ludicrous, the President of the United States of America has hinted towards that assertion.

He hasn't made the accusation in quite so many words, and on this matter as so many others his various pronouncements have been inconsistent. But he has access to a "big red button" (which is neither big, nor red, nor yet a button, but these are minor details) that most of us don't, which means that we can't just ignore him in the hope that he'll go away.

 
Jenny
1349979.  Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:51 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
we can't just ignore him in the hope that he'll go away.


Sadly.

 
bobwilson
1350617.  Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:16 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
If you were able to sit down with Geordie Greig and ask unto him "Did the Daily Mail support fascism in the 1930s, or did it not?", he would look uncomfortable and shuffle in his seat


I think he'd be more likely to roll his eyes and, very patiently explain that unless you're some kind of crypto-fascist then he can't be held responsible for the actions or views of his forebears - especially since he isn't even biologically related to them.

He'd be even more likely to say "ffs - get a life" - old news and very stale.

 
costean
1351886.  Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:52 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Now move forward to 2020, and China's apparent intention to end the special status of Hong Kong. Mr Johnson confirmed yesterday that if that does happen, then all those in Hong Kong who have British National (Overseas) passports will be allowed to come to Britain.


And lo it came to pass. The Chinese authorities, needless to say, aren’t best pleased by this development:

The Chinese Ambasssador wrote:
We firmly oppose this and reserve the right to take corresponding measures


I am not sure ‘corresponding’ was precisely what he meant – Corbyn and three million of his acolytes? Even China would baulk at that.

However, it seems that China has the power prevent wholesale relocations. While this is all mostly sabre rattling, the cynic in me can’t help wondering whether it is the bank balances of the Hong Kong residents rather than democracy that is at stake here (for both sides). Or, possibly, another excuse to ditch Huawei.

 
Jenny
1351898.  Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:07 am Reply with quote

The really canny HK residents who could, relocated in the early 90s.

 

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