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The answer to protests against police brutality is...

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CB27
1359391.  Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:01 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Unfortunately, this is just one indication of the undeniable fact that this country is sleepwalking its way into fascism.

Sorry to be pedantic, but while Fascism is often popular with racists because it's characterised by nationalistic leaders and one party systems that clamp down on opposition that might speak out against nationalism, it's not technically about racism.

The reason I say this is that, while some figures in UK politics certainly display a fondness for Fascism, and a minority of people would support this, I think the majority of politicians in the UK are against Fascism, and power in Parliament is sufficiently split that it would be difficult for a Fascist leadership to make significant changes to change the political landscape of the UK.

In the US I'd say it's a lot more of a worry because of the two party system, the way elections are administered, and the hijacking of the evangelical vote by the extremist faction of the Republican party.

When looking at other countries, I would say Fascism is certainly growing popular in Eastern Europe and Russia, and China can certainly be described as having been Fascist for some time, and the current leadership making it more so.

Racism is different. While I'm no fan of Will Self, I agreed with the statement he made that people didn't have to be racist to vote Brexit, but that every racist did. And part of the Brexit campaign was heavily reliant on racism, which is why when they won the slime climbed from under their slimy rocks and proudly displayed their racism because they felt they won and that half the country agreed with them.

 
Alexander Howard
1359395.  Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:31 pm Reply with quote

I get a bit riled by "fascism" being used to label anything the speaker happens to disagree with, so I took some time to look into what fascism actually is, according to the doctrines and the practices of those who devised fascism it and put it into operation. To label the political systems of Russia and China as "fascist" is, as far as my analysis goes, exactly accurate.

 
suze
1359399.  Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:26 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
The reason I say this is that, while some figures in UK politics certainly display a fondness for Fascism, and a minority of people would support this, I think the majority of politicians in the UK are against Fascism, and power in Parliament is sufficiently split that it would be difficult for a Fascist leadership to make significant changes to change the political landscape of the UK.


I wish I could go along with that, but what we're seeing at the moment is an increasing tendency for the government not to bother with the tiresome business of getting its business through Parliament, but to rule by decree.

Even some Conservatives of the harder right have been complaining to the Sunday media about the government's fondness for changing the law by way of statutory instrument, rather than by passing legislation in the conventional way.

Steve Baker was a leading light in the ERG and is not some cuddly Ken Clarke of the centre, and when someone like him says that "This is not a free environment for a free people", we should be rather worried.


CB27 wrote:
While I'm no fan of Will Self, I agreed with the statement he made that people didn't have to be racist to vote Brexit, but that every racist did. And part of the Brexit campaign was heavily reliant on racism, which is why when they won the slime climbed from under their slimy rocks and proudly displayed their racism because they felt they won and that half the country agreed with them.


I may possibly have more time for Will Self than you do, but in any case that argument is rather similar to the one used by John Stuart Mill 150 years ago.

But yes, the Leave campaign was heavily reliant on racism. You will note that at no time did such as Farage, Rees-Mogg, or indeed Johnson criticise their own campaign for its racism. We did not hear Boris or any of the others say "While Katie Hopkins wants to leave the EU and so do I, she is also a racist idiot and please take no notice of her". That he did not say that makes the positions of such as Hopkins and Yaxley-Lennon "respectable", and it is his fault every bit as much as theirs that those positions have once again become acceptable in polite society.

It's also David Cameron's fault for leading an absolutely fucking awful Remain campaign.

 
franticllama
1359416.  Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:09 am Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
I hope this is not considered extreme bad taste, but how much Search of Stop and Search can the perpetrator of the Croydon shooting have been subjected to, if he managed to get as far as the custody suite with a gun still about his person?

And is one allowed to mention that the poor victim was an immigrant with dark skin?


I have to be rather careful with what I say here as I have heard some details regarding the incident that don't quite match up with what's been reported in the press.

What I can say, and it may or may not have a direct relation to this incident, is that there seems to be a massive training issue. Of the 35 people of team A,* only 6 have been in the job for more than 2 years. The lack of recruitment over the last 10 years has meant that there are no senior officers who really and truly understand what they are doing and are able to train up the newbies. LL has been out on the streets for less than 6 months and is considered one of the more experienced officers in her team. She has reported a number of incidents that I would consider to be 'near misses' and yet nothing seems to be done about them.

*For arguments sake, just an example team in the Met.

 
PDR
1359425.  Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:19 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
I get a bit riled by "fascism" being used to label anything the speaker happens to disagree with, so I took some time to look into what fascism actually is, according to the doctrines and the practices of those who devised fascism it and put it into operation. To label the political systems of Russia and China as "fascist" is, as far as my analysis goes, exactly accurate.


That's why the whose view of political outlook and government style as a linear scale from communist to fascist is fundamentally flawed - the communist and fascist ends of the like are often indistinguishable once the window dressing is removed as Blair said a few decades ago with his famous line:

Quote:
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”


The more accurate linear scale is from despotic to democratic (in political terms) or from directive to participative (which is how the same concept is described in a management/leadership context).

Despotic/directive organisations lead by decree, where democratic/participative organisations seek the support of the group. If you define it as a scale from 0 to 10 with despotic at 0 and democratic at 10 you would see somewhere between 8 and 10 being the place where our constitution places the UK, and somewhere between 0 and 1 being shared by Stalin, Putin, most Chinese leaders, Pol Pot, the 3rd Reich, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin and (running up against the zero stop) Boris Johnson.

PDR

 
Jenny
1359434.  Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:22 am Reply with quote

I am certainly worried about the slide towards the despotic on this side of the Atlantic. So far the institutions have stood up reasonably well, and many of Trump's "executive orders" will never in any meaningful sense of the word be executed as long as Congress holds the power of the purse and the House has a Democratic majority.

One of the things that the current administration has been clever at is finagling the rules - for example, the number of heads of department who have been appointed as 'acting' because that way they don't have to be confirmed by Congress.

 
dr.bob
1359551.  Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:46 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
It's also David Cameron's fault for leading an absolutely fucking awful Remain campaign.


"It's also David Cameron's fault for being an over-entitled, talentless half-wit with an exaggerated sense of his own adequacy."

FTFY.

 
Alexander Howard
1359875.  Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:58 pm Reply with quote

What in the name of all sanity did they think they were doing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54419760

 
CB27
1359887.  Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:35 am Reply with quote

It's going to be a case of one individual being completely socially blind who thought they had a brilliant marketing idea and not running it through anyone else.

This is the problem with social media for marketing, a lot of it can be instant and they need internal checks to make sure everything is run through some kind of double check before it goes out.

It's a harsh lesson to learn all round.

 
bobwilson
1360379.  Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:13 pm Reply with quote

I disagree – I think it’s witty and edgy. Admittedly, and understandably, it’ll cause offence to some – so do Jimmy Carr, and Ricky Gervais, and Roy Chubby Brown. Or in different times George Formby.

But then I rather think this woman has hit the nail on the head better than anyone else – particularly the bit starting at 5.00 mins in.

https://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go

 
CB27
1360451.  Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:06 am Reply with quote

For some reason the video link is not working for me, but in answer to your comments there's a difference between being edgy and offensive.

The mention of comedians is a reminder that there's a difference between playing on stereotypes and playing to stereotypes. Admittedly it can be a thin line, and both can cause offence, and at times the former can be misconstrued, but it's the difference between a comedian being edgy or being racist\sexist\other.

Going back to the advert, it's only witty if you ignore the suffering of people who were enslaved, and what slavery personally means to many people when it comes to their background.

If a slimming aid ad used concentration camp victims for portraying being thin, would that be witty? Of course not, and people would be up in arms about it.

 
PDR
1360458.  Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:20 am Reply with quote

bobwilson wrote:
I disagree – I think it’s witty and edgy. Admittedly, and understandably, it’ll cause offence to some – so do Jimmy Carr, and Ricky Gervais, and Roy Chubby Brown. Or in different times George Formby.

But then I rather think this woman has hit the nail on the head better than anyone else – particularly the bit starting at 5.00 mins in.

https://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go


That's a fascinating piece. I don't necessarily agree with each detail of what she says (I suspect it's naive to suggest that all looters are just hard working people who can't aspire to own stuff), but I absolutely agree with the overall message. Her core messages that her community feel they don't own anything, and that the social contract was broken the minute that those who are supposed to uphold it became the oppressors exemplifies precisely what's going on in these cities (as far as I can see).

PDR


Last edited by PDR on Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
Jenny
1360503.  Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:52 am Reply with quote

That's very well put.

 
Alexander Howard
1360522.  Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:44 pm Reply with quote

That may well be the intent, but if so the lady has clearly not read Hobbes properly as to the social contract, as she would then recognise that when there is no society there is no law and no protection of the law, and likewise, and in a state of actual slavery a slave may with fully propriety rise and kill his master, as no bond of duty exists, but when a state and society are established, however imperfect her perception of it, there are fundamental duties between each member precluding violence and theft. If the bonds of society were so dissolved as to reinstate the condition of warre of every one against every one, then any person could in full propriety kill whomever they wished, which is what she was protesting against.

The wisest adviser in all of this, who spoke in times far, far worse, was Martin Luther King. I expect he'd be no-platformed these days.

 
PDR
1360523.  Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:05 pm Reply with quote

And that's precisely the sort of smug drivel she was complaining about. Amongst other things if you want to reference it back to the original Rousseau you would need to recognise that he would categorise the police in the "government" group. They would therefore fall under his principle that if the government goes outside the agreed laws established by the people it is the mission of the people to abolish that government and replace it. That's what the riots were doing (arguably).

So as much as you might wish to scoff and imply that she was just a no-good, know-nothing piece of trash the reality is that she probably understands the concept of the social contract better than you do. It's possible that she may never have read Rousseau, but she certainly had a grasp of his core thesis.

PDR

 

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