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Celebaelin
1366384.  Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:52 am Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm interested in people who have to overcome obstacles, people who are not sheltered by the umbrella of the establishment, marginals.

Isabel Allende 1942-

 
Jenny
1366397.  Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:51 am Reply with quote

Quote:
“In the United States there is a unique blend of patriotism indoctrination from the pulpit which blends establishment controls into the religious ideology. This way, to question the establishment is to question God, therefore one’s patriotism and salvation is contingent on their submission to the state.”

― James Scott, Senior Fellow, The Center for Cyber Influence Operations Studies

 
Celebaelin
1366464.  Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:50 pm Reply with quote

Unique?
Quote:
He changes times and seasons;
he deposes kings and raises up others.
He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning.

Daniel 2:21

Quote:
Dieu et mon droit

attrib. Richard I (1157–1199)

Quote:
The state of monarchy is the supremest thing upon earth: for kings are not only God's Lieutenants upon earth, and sit upon God's throne, but even by God himself they are called Gods.

King James I 1566-1625

Quote:
L'etat c'est moi. (I am the state)

Louis XIV 1638-1715

Quote:
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

Letter objecting to the use of government land for churches 1803
James Madison 1751–1836

 
Jenny
1366524.  Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:48 am Reply with quote

Historically that's true, but I think not nowadays in most of Europe. Here, in at least some of the more evangelical churches, pastors have no hesitation in telling the flock how they should vote.

 
suze
1366546.  Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:27 pm Reply with quote

If a minister in the US does that, he renders his church an "action organization" rather than a church. That makes it ineligible for the tax exempt status that churches have in the US.

In theory, he can get around that by saying in small print "This is my personal opinion and not that of the Church of the Poison Mind". Does that kind of minister actually do this, or does he just rely on the IRS "not noticing" his political campaigning?

 
Celebaelin
1366577.  Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:21 am Reply with quote

Prominent quotes from Henry Clay that I omitted earlier...
Quote:
All religions united with government are more or less inimical to liberty. All, separated from government, are compatible with liberty.

Henry Clay

Quote:
I always have had, and always shall have, a profound regard for Christianity, the religion of my fathers, and for its rights, its usages and observances.

Henry Clay

 
Jenny
1366644.  Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:00 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
If a minister in the US does that, he renders his church an "action organization" rather than a church. That makes it ineligible for the tax exempt status that churches have in the US.

In theory, he can get around that by saying in small print "This is my personal opinion and not that of the Church of the Poison Mind". Does that kind of minister actually do this, or does he just rely on the IRS "not noticing" his political campaigning?


I think they rely on the IRS not noticing. It's much more common than that law would suggest.

 
Celebaelin
1366735.  Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:12 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
The enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution.

Sun Tzu d. 496 BC

Quote:
The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

Sun Tzu

Quote:
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.

Sun Tzu

Quote:
In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.

Winston Churchill 1874–1965

Quote:
Everyone, when there's war in the air, learns to live in a new element: falsehood.

Jean Giraudoux 1882–1944

 
Celebaelin
1367420.  Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:57 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
One of the drawbacks of fame is that one can never escape from it.

Nellie Melba (1861–1931)

Quote:
The woman who can create her own job is the woman who will win fame and fortune.

Amelia Earhart (1897–1937)

Quote:
All my stepchildren carried the burden of my fame. Sometimes they would read terrible things about me, and I'd worry about whether it would hurt them. I would tell them: 'Don't hide these things from me. I'd rather you ask me these things straight out, and I'll answer all your questions.

Marilyn Monroe (1926–1962)

Quote:
What people don't realize is that fame, whatever your worst experience in high school, when you were being bullied by those ten kids in high school, fame is that, but on a global scale, where you're being bullied by millions of people constantly.

Megan Fox (1986- )

Quote:
Acquaintance lessens fame.

Emperor Claudius (10BC-54AD)

Quote:
How many emperors and how many princes have lived and died and no record of them remains, and they only sought to gain dominions and riches in order that their fame might be ever-lasting.

Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519)

Quote:
He that pursues fame with just claims, trusts his happiness to the winds; but he that endeavors after it by false merit, has to fear, not only the violence of the storm, but the leaks of his vessel.

Samuel Johnson (1709–1784)

Quote:
It is strange to be known so universally and yet to be so lonely.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Quote:
You get people who come to London, sever links with where they come from, and then when they need people, there's nobody there. To feel like you can't go back home would be a horribly sad place to be, as is mistaking fame for genuine love and affection.

Johnny Vegas (1970-)

Quote:
Fame is a weird one. You need to distance yourself from it. People see a value in you that you don't see yourself.

Benedict Cumberbatch (1976-)

Quote:
Fame is damaging when people become reliant on it for their sense of self, and their identity, when fame is linked to how you see yourself.

Daniel Radcliffe (1989-)

 
Celebaelin
1368749.  Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:23 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
"An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition... argument is an intellectual process; contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says."
"No it isn't."

John Cleese (1939-) and Graham Chapman (1941–1989)

Quote:
You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

Ben Goldacre (1974-) Bad Science

Quote:
It does take great maturity to understand that the opinion we are arguing for is merely the hypothesis we favor, necessarily imperfect, probably transitory, which only very limited minds can declare to be a certainty or a truth.

Milan Kundera (1929-) Encounter

Quote:
For good ideas and true innovation, you need human interaction, conflict, argument, debate.

Margaret Heffernan (1955-)

Quote:
There are all kinds of stupid people that annoy me but what annoys me most is a lazy argument.

Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)

Quote:
A mature society understands that at the heart of democracy is argument.

Salman Rushdie (1947-)

Quote:
Silence is argument carried out by other means.

Che Guevara (1929-1967)

Quote:
Truth springs from argument amongst friends.

David Hume (1711–1776)

 
PDR
1368757.  Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:04 pm Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:

Quote:
You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.

Ben Goldacre (1974-) Bad Science



While the citation is literally true (it does indeed appear in Ben's book) he would be quick to point out that he was by no means its originator. I know this because [mode=name-drop] I discussed this very point with him in the bar after one of his gigs at the fringe a few years ago[/name-drop]. I was asking him if he had a decent source for it as I had used it in an MBA assignment and been forced to resort to the usual weak "usually attributed to Jonathan Swift".

Swift is possibly the earliest source for the general sentiment - there is a letter which he wrote in 1721 which included the phrase

"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired"


Fisher Ames is believed to have been referencing Swift when he said in 1786:

"Men are not to be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into"

...and again in 1804 when he said:

"As they were not reasoned up, they cannot be reasoned down."

There are literally dozens of citations of the sentiment with minor phrasing variations through the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, so attributing it to a work published in 2010 is possibly dubious...

[this post has be brought to you by Pedents R Us - a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sue Grabbit and Rohna Way LLP, Attorneys at Law for and on behalf of the Fallen Angel]

 
Celebaelin
1368759.  Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:14 pm Reply with quote

All pertinent information gratefully received.

As chance would have it I was musing on the recycling of phrases just after making that last post.

For example:

Quote:
Written laws are like spiders' webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful.

Anacharsis circa 590BC in Plutarch A History of Greece - Solon: The Lawmaker of Athens (died 559 B.C.)

Quote:
Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies, but let wasps and hornets break through.

Jonathan Swift (1667–1745) A Tritical Essay upon the Faculties of the Mind

Quote:
Laws are generally found to be nets of such a texture, as the little creep through, the great break through, and the middle-sized alone are entangled in.

William Shenstone (1714-63) Essays on Men, Manners and Things 'On Politics'

Quote:
Laws are spider webs through which the big flies pass and the little ones get caught.

Honoré de Balzac (1799–1850)

and there's one citation without a source

Quote:
One of the Seven was wont to say: “That laws were like cobwebs; where the small flies were caught, and the great brake through.”

Francis Bacon, 1st Baron Verulam & Viscount St Albans (1561-1626) - Apothegms No. 181.


Then there are these similar comments:

Quote:
War is nothing but a continuation of politics with the admixture of other means.

Carl Philipp Gottfried von Clausewitz (1780–1831)
Quote:
Diplomacy is a disguised war, in which states seek to gain by barter and intrigue, by the cleverness of arts, the objectives which they would have to gain more clumsily by means of war.

Randolph Bourne (1886–1918)

Quote:
All diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means.

Zhou Enlai (1898–1976)

 
Celebaelin
1369911.  Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:13 am Reply with quote

A further shared/plagiarised idea:

Quote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke (1729–1797)

Quote:
Evil prospers when good men do nothing.

John Philpot Curran (1750-1817)

Quote:
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Quote:
Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.

Haile Selassie (1892-1975)

Quote:
For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing.

Simon Wiesenthal (1908–2005)


and to continue with that general subject

Quote:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Isaiah 5:20

Quote:
Cursed is the man who dies, but the evil done by him survives.

Abu Bakr (573-634)

Quote:
Nothing is so good that impious and sacrilegious and wicked people cannot contort its proper benefit into evil.

Giordano Bruno (1548-1600)


It appears that for the most part the delineation of the notion of evil is a post-enlightenment subject; prior to that evil tended to mean 'bad things happening':-

Quote:
The best form of government is that which is most likely to prevent the greatest sum of evil.

James Monroe (1758-1831)

Quote:
The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness.

Joseph Conrad (1857-1924)

Quote:
The line between good and evil is permeable and almost anyone can be induced to cross it when pressured by situational forces.

Philip Zimbardo (1933-)

Quote:
Moral evil is the immorality and pain and suffering and tragedy that come because we choose to be selfish, arrogant, uncaring, hateful and abusive.

Lee Strobel (1952-)

Quote:
I believe the root of all evil is abuse of power.

Patricia Cornwell (1956-)

Quote:
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.

'Scott Alexander' blogger (?)


I'll close this out with advice from my favourite freelance civil servant and contributing author on Game of Thrones.

Quote:
It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope.

Niccolo Machiavelli (1469-1527)


and a modern commentator

Quote:
What's distinctively shocking about Machiavelli is that he didn't care. He believed not only that politicians must do evil in the name of the public good, but also that they shouldn't worry about it. He was unconcerned, in other words, with what modern thinkers call 'the problem of dirty hands.'

Michael Ignatieff (1947-)

 
Celebaelin
1370020.  Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:12 am Reply with quote

More ‘similar ideas’ voiced over the centuries

Quote:
Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue.

Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld (1613-1680)

Quote:
In England the only homage which they pay to Virtue - is hypocrisy.

Lord Byron (1788-1824)

Quote:
Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.

Grover Norquist (1956-)


and some other opinions on hypocrisy which, other than in quotes from the New Testament, seems to be a relatively modern scruple:-

Quote:
Hypocrisy, the only evil that walks
Invisible, except to God alone.

John Milton (1608-1674)

Quote:
The only vice that cannot be forgiven is hypocrisy. The repentance of a hypocrite is itself hypocrisy.

William Hazlitt (1778-1830)

Quote:
There are three things in the world that deserve no mercy, hypocrisy, fraud, and tyranny.

Frederick William Robertson (1816-1853)

Quote:
It's really very unfair that man should have chosen the gorilla to symbolize all that is aggressive and violent, when that's the one thing that the gorilla is not and that we are.

Sir David Attenborough (1926-)
*
Quote:
Hypocrisy is the mother of all evil and racial prejudice is still her favourite child.

Don King (1931-)

Quote:
There's a lot more hypocrisy than before. Racism has gone back underground.

Richard Pryor (1940-2005)

Quote:
I'm not two-faced, I'm honest, and I tell it the way it is. And I'm not good at hypocrisy, pretending to be someone I'm not.

Lady Colin Campbell (1949-)

Quote:
Hypocrisy n.

The moment you tell someone it is not important to be right, in order to look right to everyone else.

Shannon L. Alder (1969-)

Quote:
Hypocrisy demonstrates how unaccountable one is to conventional morality.

Michael Shellenberger (1971-)

Quote:
For a devil, hypocrisy is a parlour game, like charades. Such fun, and when the evening is done we shall be holding our bellies to keep from dying of laughter.

Catherynne M. Valente (1979-)


* George Bernard Shaw (1856–1950) said something with similar intent prompted by the 'monkey gland' treatments of the time but it's far from pithy so I'll leave it to the reader to pursue - or not.

 
Celebaelin
1370286.  Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:06 am Reply with quote

I'm watching the LotR films and because the interesting bits are about Aragorn really...

Quote:
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

J.R.R. Tolkien (1892 –1973) The Fellowship of the Ring

 

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