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crissdee
1364603.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:50 pm Reply with quote

In my limited experience of open fires, I found that the heat tends to dissipate quite quickly, and once one is more than a few feet away, the fire might as well be out for all the good it does.

 
PDR
1364610.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:03 pm Reply with quote

Fireplaces (properly designed ones) are specifically designed to achieve precisely this. The mechanism has been uderstood for many centuries.

The fire us surrounded on three sides with a suitable refractory material (eg concrete or stone), the side elements of which are set at an obtuse angle so that they face out into the room. Directly above the fire there is another piece of similar material set at an angle so that it also faces out into the room.

The heat from the front face of the fire radiates directly into the room until it hits something to heat.

Heat from the side faces of the fire radiates out until it hits the angled side stones. These stones reflect some of the heat into the room and absorb the rest, which is then re-radiated into the room at right-angles to the faces of the stones. This element alone provides a wide spread of radiated heat into the body of the room.

Heat from the rear of the fire radiates out to the stone behind the fire which (as for the side pieces) reflects some of it and absorbs/re-radiates the rest - all of it heads out into the room.

Heat from the top face of the fire radiates upwards until it hits the inclined upper stone, whereupon it also reflects and absorbs/re-radiates just like the other stones.

Heat from the main body of the fire heats gases which convect up away from the fire. If the chimney were directly above the fire this heat would mostly just head upwards to heat passing aircraft, but in a properly-designed fireplace the chimney is actually well forward of the fire, so these hot gases rise upwards and pass along the face of the inclined upper stone, transferring a lot of their heat to the stone in the process. This heat is then radiated out onto the room.

If you have (say) a roasting spit above a fire in a fire-place you can observe nearly as much cooking heat coming onto the TOP of the hog (other scrummy roasting subjects are available) from the inclined upper stone as the underside gets from the fire beneath, but I digress.

So comparatively little of the fire's heat energy passes into the chimney. In a multi-storey building it gets even better, because the chimney flue path is rarely straight. The flue path runs straight for a while, then has angled sections and finally goes straight again before passing to the chimney. These slant-flue sections will often be in the walls of upstairs bedrooms. The objective here is to induce the hot gases to heat the walls of these bedrooms, slowing the gases to maximise heat transfer (it's a trade off between getting sufficient flue-draw and wasting heat out of the chimney). One of my student digs was an upstairs room whose walls got seriously toasty on the rare occasions when the Fagin-wanabe landlord actually lit a fire in his sitting room. This last mechanism is the same basic concept as the folded/convoluted combustion chambers seen in jet engines which try to extract the maximum amount of heat from the combustion flame into the gas it's expanding t do the work.

So in summary - you CAN AND DO head a room by having an open fire at one end of it.

NALOPKT(&EFGAS),

PDR

 
Dix
1364619.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:19 pm Reply with quote

Indeed.

We're in a two-up/two-down terrace from the 1930's.
Our wood stove is installed in the old fireplace which is placed mid-wall as usual, on the wall that divides us from the next house, but instead of the two usual alcoves on both side of the chimney breast we have only one. On the other side, towards the middle of the house, the chimney breast continues to the wall, with the lowest 1.5m being a recess that was probably a log store. It's a small desk / bookcase now.
Above the log store the chimney goes at a roughly 45 degree angle from the top of the fireplace to the ceiling and then vertically up in the corner of the bedroom above and finally to the chimney at the top of the roof ridge.

It must be unusual. I don't think the people that installed the log burner had come across something like that before.

That piece of wall can be ever so nice and toasty if you keep a good fire going. It makes a really big difference to have a heated wall. It's really handy in a "broken boiler" situation.

The room above benefits as well. And probably the neighbour.

 
tetsabb
1364621.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:26 pm Reply with quote

[quote="Celebaelin"]
Quote:

The Englishman in question would appear to be tetsabb!


How very dare you call me an Englishman!

Father born in Dublin
Mother's mother from Macroom Co Cork.

Parkray stoves

 
Celebaelin
1364629.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:51 pm Reply with quote

I knew that tets - not the detail but the gist - however it would have got in the way of the reason for posting the quote so I decided to ignore the actual truth of the matter.

As regards my experience of the ability of a grate-fire to heat a room I've got to go with crissdee and Mr Fiske on this one.

 
PDR
1364632.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:00 pm Reply with quote

Criss was referring to an open fire - I took him to mean one that was outside. I've has several accomodations with wood or coal-burning harth-fireplaces in the sitting rooms that took the room from "ice forming on the inside the windows" to warm enough to sit around in shorts" in less than half an hour.

PDR

 
crissdee
1364642.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:56 pm Reply with quote

I did mean an indoor fire such as you describe in your longer post upthread. I suppose part of it is being a "soft townie" who is used to central heating. I love the look of a "real" fire, but rely on technology to actually get warm.

 
suze
1364645.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:50 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
How very dare you call me an Englishman!

Father born in Dublin
Mother's mother from Macroom Co Cork.


And even beyond being fairly Irish, you're a Yorkshireman. How anyone could consider you English ...

 
AlmondFacialBar
1364646.  Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:21 pm Reply with quote

[quote="tetsabb"]
Celebaelin wrote:
Quote:

The Englishman in question would appear to be tetsabb!


How very dare you call me an Englishman!

Father born in Dublin
Mother's mother from Macroom Co Cork.

Parkray stoves


McCarthy or O'Sullivan?

At any rate, the idea that the two are one and the same is still surprisingly widespread...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
tetsabb
1364679.  Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:13 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
tetsabb wrote:
How very dare you call me an Englishman!

Father born in Dublin
Mother's mother from Macroom Co Cork.


And even beyond being fairly Irish, you're a Yorkshireman. How anyone could consider you English ...


Well, quite!

 
Celebaelin
1365015.  Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:28 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Originality is the last refuge of the unappreciative.

John Cooper
https://www.oscarwildeinamerica.org/quotations/ruins-and-curiosities.html
https://www.oscarwildeinamerica.org/about/john-cooper.html

After

Quote:
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive.

Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

After

Quote:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

 
Celebaelin
1365770.  Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:59 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Orthodoxy is my doxy - heterodoxy is another man's doxy.

William Warburton (1698–1779) to Lord Sandwich


A bit risqué for a clergyman and yet still conformist.

 
Celebaelin
1366157.  Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:05 am Reply with quote

Voltaire (François-Marie Arouet) 1694–1778 had quite a lot to say about enemies:

Quote:
May God defend me from my friends: I can defend myself from my enemies.

Voltaire

Quote:
The adjective is the enemy of the substantive.

Voltaire

Quote:
The best is the enemy of the good.

Voltaire (quoting an Italian proverb "Il meglio è l'inimico del bene")

Quote:
Now, now my good man, this is no time to be making enemies."
(on his deathbed in response to a priest asking him that he renounce Satan.)

Voltaire

Quote:
I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous. ' And God granted it.

Voltaire

Quote:
Theological religion is the source of all imaginable follies and disturbances. It is the parent of fanaticism and civil discord; it is the enemy of mankind.

Voltaire

Quote:
I die adoring God, loving my friends, not hating my enemies, and detesting superstition.

Voltaire

Quote:
Nothing is so common as to imitate one's enemies, and to use their weapons.

Voltaire

Quite why Voltaire was so preoccupied with enemies can perhaps be explained by his professed attitude to candid conversation.

Quote:
The great consolation in life is to say what one thinks.

Voltaire

 
Celebaelin
1366297.  Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:18 am Reply with quote

Quote:
Government is a trust, and the officers of the government are trustees. And both the trust and the trustees are created for the benefit of the people.

Henry Clay 1777–1852

Quote:
All legislation is founded upon the principle of mutual concession.

Henry Clay

Quote:
Let him who elevates himself above humanity . . . say, if he pleases, "I will never compromise"; but let no one who is not above the frailties of our common nature disdain compromise.

Henry Clay

Quote:
The arts of power and its minions are the same in all countries and in all ages. It marks its victim; denounces it; and excites the public odium and the public hatred, to conceal its own abuses and encroachments.

Henry Clay

Quote:
How often are we forced to charge fortune with partiality towards the unjust!

Henry Clay

 
PDR
1366304.  Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:37 am Reply with quote

Quote:

The rain it raineth on the just
And also on the unjust fella;
But chiefly on the just, because
The unjust hath the just’s umbrella.

Lord Bowen

 

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