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Pandemic 2020 - the day after

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barbados
1378988.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:42 am Reply with quote

If the truth be known, there currently is no actual need for a card vaccine passport either is there.

 
Leith
1378991.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:48 am Reply with quote

The Goverment are trying to rapidly ease lockdown many months before completing the first nationwide vaccination - could be quite an important tool in achieving that, I'd say.

Not that that's what they are talking about in the trial Brock links.
They rule out implementing passports in the short term and are talking about what sounds like a much longer term measure for the coming years - something that would carry rather more significant civil liberties problems, I think.

 
barbados
1378992.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:55 am Reply with quote

Just out of interest, why do you think a longer term plan would carry more significant civil liberties isse?

 
Leith
1379000.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:48 am Reply with quote

Restricting people's ability to access to sevices and right to travel temporarily for a few months because we haven't got to vaccinating everyone yet is one thing, and arguably justifiable to reduce risk of another wave.

Permanent / long term exclusion of people who remain unvaccinated after that would
A) potentially affect a lot of people who can't have the vaccine due to age / health issues / pregnancy etc.
B) effectively amount to the Government having made the vaccine, if not mandatory, then at least a pre-requisite for access to a lot of normal societal freedoms

Issue A is clearly an injustice to those affected through no fault of their own, and would need a very strong justification in terms of the public health impacts.

I've less sympathy for people who would be affected by issue B, but it would nonetheless be a significant step up in authoritarian control to impose long term restrictions on them.

 
barbados
1379007.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:06 am Reply with quote

This takes us back to the "at what point do we do one thing in the knowledge it will affect those who cannot comply with the requirement" debate.
For those with a smartphone, the app side of things would by far and away be the most effective method, for those without then an alternative (paper/card) is required right down to the lowest realistic level of exclusion - whatever that may be.
The whole passport thing will be at least two years away - simply because you need to a) work out what that level is exclusion is, and b) the level of vaccination is such that a currently undecided percentage of the population has been vaccinated.

 
Leith
1379015.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:19 am Reply with quote

But in this case, an affected group is people who can't have the vaccination - for whom there is not yet an alternative solution on the horizon.

Here there is a genuine conflict of needs. Freedoms for the unvaccinated vs health of the population as a whole.

The previous discussion was about denying freedoms to people without smart phones - which would be an artificial and completely unnecessary restriction since paper or card solutions are a ready alternative.

Hopefully, as you say, no such vaccination-based restrictions will prove necessary.

 
barbados
1379019.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:24 am Reply with quote

Leith wrote:

The previous discussion was about denying freedoms to people without smart phones - which would be an artificial and completely unnecessary restriction since paper or card solutions are a ready alternative.

Hopefully, as you say, no such vaccination-based restrictions will prove necessary.

And there was me thinking the discussion was how to include as many as possible in any "passport" requirement as possible.

 
Jenny
1379039.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:02 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:

And there was me thinking the discussion was how to include as many as possible in any "passport" requirement as possible.


I think you may have been alone in that thinking. My thinking and what I have observed of others would suggest that Leith is correct.

 
Brock
1379044.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:27 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
barbados wrote:

And there was me thinking the discussion was how to include as many as possible in any "passport" requirement as possible.


I think you may have been alone in that thinking. My thinking and what I have observed of others would suggest that Leith is correct.


No, he wasn't alone in that thinking. I have read and re-read and re-read the thread several times. No one suggested that freedoms should be denied to people without smartphones. That was purely PDR's mischaracterization of the discussion.

 
barbados
1379045.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:31 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
barbados wrote:

And there was me thinking the discussion was how to include as many as possible in any "passport" requirement as possible.


I think you may have been alone in that thinking. My thinking and what I have observed of others would suggest that Leith is correct.

Are you suggesting that we should just accept there will be 16% of the population discriminated against? I have repeatedly said that we should include as many as possible, and we should also look for a method to do that in an efficient a way as possible. That, as CB27, Brock, and myself have suggested is a complex matter, that will involve a number of solutions, which at the moment would be Smartphone app for those with that option available, and paper for those who don't.
Some are struggling to understand that.

 
Jenny
1379051.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:17 pm Reply with quote

Some of you may be struggling, but that may be because you are mischaracterising the nature of the discussion. No of course nobody accepts that 16% of the population should be discriminated against. That is, in fact, the entire point of the posts Leith has been patiently making - that there are alternatives that don't rely on access to technology.

 
barbados
1379054.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:41 pm Reply with quote

Given the reluctance of UK citizens to trust a card based identification method, as discussed up thread, the sole “paper based” option is not going to be a popular solution.
The trials into what method of delivering the service are yet to start, however it has been pointed out that there will be a paper version available to those who do not have access to the technology for an electronic version. Why do you have a problem with that solution?

 
Jenny
1379065.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:58 pm Reply with quote

I don’t recall saying that I have a problem with that possibility if it comes to pass, which there is currently no guarantee that it will.

 
Awitt
1379066.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:01 pm Reply with quote

In Australia every place I've gone has had the QR code scanner. I have that feature on my phone but don't use the internet needed to use it properly as it sucks my $30 credit that has to last a month - I didn't realise it needed internet connection.

Interestingly, people have said in our media that since using this method to sign in, they've been hit with more spam than ever before.

The booksale I attended yesterday had paper forms to fill out - being an organisation run by typically older people, they'd be well aware of the facts that not everyone can use the technology nor has the phone with QR code.

And our vaccine 'cards' have been business card sized so can fit easily in the wallet.

 
barbados
1379067.  Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:05 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
I don’t recall saying that I have a problem with that possibility if it comes to pass, which there is currently no guarantee that it will.

Of all of the trials you are aware of, how many of those are
a) full paper /plastic card based certificates
b) full smartphone based certificates
c) a mixture of smartphone and other certificates

As yet, those in the discussion have spoken of two, a source has been provided for one, and personal experience has been highlighted for another. The third option has not been discussed.

 

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