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barbados
1341688.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:26 am Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm interested to know what you mean by "in as much as any person can". Do you mean "all people have unconscious bias, therefore I have managed to reduce mine to the minimum humanly possible"?

If that were the case, then I would suggest the answer to my question should be "no", but you've answered it "yes", so I'm a bit confused.

The question is impossible to answer, by their very nature, unconcious thoughts occur with your knowledge.

I note, however you didn't answer the question.

 
dr.bob
1341690.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:08 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
That's a very good point. Of the people I talked to I would suggest 50% were over 40 and only a handfull (3-4 people - call it 10%) would be under 25.


Thanks for the info.

PDR wrote:
Absolutely - changing takes effort where not changing doesn't.


Effort is clearly a bad thing (at least in my eyes!)

PDR wrote:
Changing requires people to own the subsequent problems where those of the extant situation can be blamed on previous generations!


That's a good point, but I think it belies a deeper issue. Changing also requires people to admit there's a problem.

I'm not suggesting you fall into this category, but I strongly suspect that a lot of people who resist changes in language (to avoid offending sections of society) do so because they prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that the problem doesn't exist. By contrast, forcing people to address a problem and acknowledge it exists is the first step towards having meaningful conversations about how to tackle the problem (even if opinions will differ on the best way to tackle the issue).

I certainly recall that when presented with evidence of discrimination (either racist or, in the case of the MeToo movement, sexist), my first reaction was "Oh my god, all this bad shit has been going on all around me and I never noticed? I must be a really bad person!" I can see why some people would choose to deny that such things are really going on, or pretend that they're very much in the minority, rather than admit their own failings.

PDR wrote:
I think I'm mainly driven by the way that in the exampoles we've looked at (my poll and the NAACP examples) there is no significant majority in favour of the change - indeed no majority at all in the case of my poll.


That's a good point, but it comes back to my earlier question about who gets to decide which words should be withdrawn from use and where the dividing line should be drawn. Does there need to be a "significant majority in favour of the change" (where "majority" here refers to just those victimised by the current usage)? Or does there just need to be a significant number of people who are offended? If so, how do we define "significant" in that context?

PDR wrote:
But examine the countercase where instead I ignored those who agreed with me and implemented the change to satisfy the other group. The first group would now ALSO have a valid complaint


I completely agree. I think there's clearly a need for both sides of the argument (at least, among those being affected. I really don't want Laurence Fox wading in!) to be listened to before forming a conclusion. I've said before I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest I have all the answers and, to be honest, as a white man with no personal experience of racial discrimination, I don't think I should even be a part of deciding what the answer should be.

Ultimately, I guess some people will always be unhappy with any decision, since you can't please all the people all the time. However, the best way to avoid the positive feedback and oscillation you describe is surely to make sure everyone feels that their point of view has at least been listened to.

(As an aside, I caught the end of the latest Ed Balls documentary last night where he explores the rise of right-wing extremists in Europe. In it he spoke to a gay couple who voted for the far-right AfD party in the last election. The reason was simple: one of the couple had been badly attacked by a Muslim immigrant in his own home. The attacker (who had proven ISIS sympathies) wasn't prosecuted and escaped justice by fleeing to Syria. The couple were frustrated by how their case had been handled by the police, and wrote to politicians of almost every party. Most simply didn't reply, and others replied to say there was nothing they would do. The only party to reply promising to look into the issue was AfD, so a gay couple ended up voting for a far-right party even though they had a specific policy opposing gay marriage simply because they felt they were being listened to.)

PDR wrote:
But we're moving into a situation where once again they CAN be used for their original meanings because those who were originally the targets of these as insults have themselves claimed the words so that they are no longer offensive.


I think this is the problem I've been having with your suggestion that continuing to use words will reclaim them for their original meaning. Whilst a well meaning idea in theory, I think it's entirely correct that the people who are the targets of the insults are the ones who should decide when it's OK to reclaim the words, and when it's not OK to use them.

 
dr.bob
1341691.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:26 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
[The question is impossible to answer, by their very nature, unconcious thoughts occur with your knowledge.


I assume you meant to say "without your knowledge" here, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Please could you read through your posts before you submit them to make sure you haven't made any simple typos.

Of course the question is possible to answer. I asked if you think you are a person without any unconscious biases, not if you know you are such a person.

So I'll ask again: Do you think you are a person with absolutely no unconscious biases whatsoever?

barbados wrote:
I note, however you didn't answer the question.


I'm very happy to answer the question, and will do so as soon as I get a straight answer from you.

 
barbados
1341692.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:37 am Reply with quote

Are you sure you overlooked my answer to the question asked?
Only you seem to have quoted it a couple of posts up
dr.bob wrote:
barbados wrote:
dr.bob wrote:

Let me turn this question around: Do you think you are a person with absolutely no unconscious biases whatsoever?

Yes I do, in as much as any person can

 
dr.bob
1341693.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:29 am Reply with quote

Would that be the post where I asked you to clarify your answer? A clarification you haven't provided yet.

Actually, let's make it easier and pretend I didn't read your previous post. Why not cut out a lot of the pointless back and forth and just give me a simple answer to the question now, even if you consider it to be repeating yourself. After all, I only require a simple yes or no:

Do you think you are a person with absolutely no unconscious biases whatsoever?

In return, I am happy to provide a simple yes-or-no answer myself.

 
barbados
1341694.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:56 am Reply with quote

I really don't know what needs clarification.
Yes, I do consider myself to have no bias of any form.
But it is an impossible question to answer in the way you asked it,
You think it is a simple yes or no answer, fine offer one up, and I will tell you why you are wrong.

 
dr.bob
1341699.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:14 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
I really don't know what needs clarification.
Yes, I do consider myself to have no bias of any form.


I suspected as much. Thanks for confirming it.

barbados wrote:
But it is an impossible question to answer in the way you asked it,
You think it is a simple yes or no answer, fine offer one up, and I will tell you why you are wrong.


I believe that I do have unconscious biases when dealing with other people, so my answer to the question would be "no".

 
barbados
1341706.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:04 pm Reply with quote

If you are answering yes, then you must be aware of it - which makes it a concious bias, Unless of course you can think of a way that you can be aware of something you are unaware of.

Do you see yet how it is an impossible question to answer?

 
Zziggy
1341714.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:12 pm Reply with quote

In addition to proof-reading your posts before you hit send, barb, it would also be wildly helpful if you could google terms you don't understand before you answer questions about them.

 
barbados
1341715.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:22 pm Reply with quote

An excellent contribution.
Very well done.

 
Zziggy
1341717.  Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:17 pm Reply with quote

To be honest, I feel like when it's glaringly obvious that one party in a discussion has absolutely no idea what they're talking about, "maybe you should do some reading around this topic before you opine quite so loudly" probably is a good contribution, actually.

 
barbados
1341738.  Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:57 am Reply with quote

Do you have any unconcious bias then? Because, depending upon which studies you believe, between 85 and 95% donít.
You can take tests to see, I have taken the racism test and it showed a slight preference towards black people, I retook the tests last night and took the racism test and the politics one. Itís quite a simplistic test - you select a button to place a picture or word in a group of either good or bad, then after 7 sections with differing collections ( variations on position of white, bad v black, good and white, good v black,bad) and I again came out slightly in favour of black in the racism one, but oddly I came out slightly in favour of Trump over Obama on the politics. I can only assume that is because I regularly got the first ones wrong in each test group.
But Iím happy to count myself in the 5-15% who do not show an unconscious bias.
The tests I have taken from harvard, and I had initally been drawn to it by my niece when she was doing her sociology degree.

 
Jenny
1341762.  Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:46 pm Reply with quote

I don't see how those tests could possibly work if the person being tested was aware what they were being tested for.

 
barbados
1341763.  Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:51 pm Reply with quote

Have you seen the tests?

 
Alexander Howard
1341768.  Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:32 pm Reply with quote

Nightmare! Grabbed by a copper while I was on my mobile. I had been speaking Welsh, so I assumed he thought it was some secret code to a terrorist, but no, he knew it was Welsh and I was arrested for "cultural appropriation".

I had to accompany him to my house where it got worse - he found the remains of last night's Chinese meal. That might have been explained away, but then he spotted the book of French poetry I had bought for my wife, which was damning. Cultural appropriation is a form of racist theft, he told me. Thank goodness I managed to hide my wife's hair curling tongs in time.

 

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