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crissdee
1390434.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:19 am Reply with quote

 
PDR
1390443.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:13 am Reply with quote

Pyriform wrote:
PDR wrote:
Well Welsh is difficult to write to to the endemic irritable vowel syndrome

But the usual complaint is that Welsh doesn't have any vowels.


Which is why the few they have suffer an unfair workload, making them so irritable...

PDR

 
Celebaelin
1390449.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:13 am Reply with quote

I haven't done this calculation before but I'm fairly confident so let's give it a try...

English:
5 vowels, 26 letters = 19.23%

Welsh:
7 vowels (a, e, i, o, u, w, and y), 29 letters = 24.14%

or, since y can be a consonant
6 vowels, 29 letters = 20.69%

Joking aside it's a misconception worthy of General Ignorance.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1390452.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:17 am Reply with quote

But then people tend to forget that in Welsh a w really is a double-u. I must admit I didn't realise that myself until encountering it in Middlehighgerman.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
PDR
1390455.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:35 am Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
I haven't done this calculation before but I'm fairly confident so let's give it a try...

English:
5 vowels, 26 letters = 19.23%

Welsh:
7 vowels (a, e, i, o, u, w, and y), 29 letters = 24.14%

or, since y can be a consonant
6 vowels, 29 letters = 20.69%

Joking aside it's a misconception worthy of General Ignorance.


It's not the number in the inventory so much as the relative frequency of deployment in words and sentences...

:0)

PDR

 
Alexander Howard
1390456.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:43 am Reply with quote

I'd call 'y' a vowel in English, most of the time.

In Welsh, 'ch', 'dd', 'ff', 'll', 'ng', 'ph', 'rh' and 'th' are considered separate letters, so 'Llanelli' has 3 consonants and 3 vowels. Llanfihangel-yng-Ngwynfa has 18 letters; 10 consonants, 8 vowels.

Ah, poor Welsh, the most beautifully poetic language in the world overshadowed by sitting on an island with the second most beautifully poetic language in the world.

 
Celebaelin
1390458.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:55 am Reply with quote

I've hardly heard any Scots Gaelic poetry so I'll take your word for it.

You obviously can't mean English because given the wide vocabulary available after you've mentioned Shakespeare there's not much to shout about.

 
Brock
1390486.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:43 am Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
I haven't done this calculation before but I'm fairly confident so let's give it a try...

English:
5 vowels, 26 letters = 19.23%

Welsh:
7 vowels (a, e, i, o, u, w, and y), 29 letters = 24.14%

or, since y can be a consonant
6 vowels, 29 letters = 20.69%


When is "y" used as a consonant in Welsh? I thought the consonantal "y"-sound was represented by the letter "i" (as in the name "Ioan", or the toast "iechyd da").

On a more general point, I've never understood why English speakers are fazed by Welsh spelling. It's one of the few languages I know whose script is almost completely phonetic. I learned the sounds of the letters in Welsh when I was a kid, and I reckon I can still read a page of Welsh out loud correctly without having the faintest idea what most of it means.

 
cornixt
1390502.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:20 am Reply with quote

Now I'm just eager to see how different Welsh Countdown would be from the English one.

 
Brock
1390507.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:34 am Reply with quote

cornixt wrote:
Now I'm just eager to see how different Welsh Countdown would be from the English one.


I don't know, but I do know that in Welsh Scrabble letters like LL appear on a single tile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4308262.stm

 
Celebaelin
1390519.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:48 am Reply with quote

Brock wrote:
When is "y" used as a consonant in Welsh? I thought the consonantal "y"-sound was represented by the letter "i" (as in the name "Ioan", or the toast "iechyd da").

There are a few different ways of pronouncing 'y' in Welsh (depending on accent and the surrounding letters) and whilst none of them seem like consonants to me I'm assured that this is the case.

The y in royal is a consonant in English apparently - presumably because it's between two vowels but don't use me as a source on that.

In Welsh y on its own means 'the' so it could crop up in any variety of backgrounds and presumably some of these constitute consonantal use but which particular ones are vowel uses and which consonant uses I cannot say.

There is a place (several places tbh) called Pen-y-Bont (Head of the Bridge literally) which I would pronounce as pen-a-bont as in Thomas-a-Becket (yes, yes, don't get into that again - it's just an example). Now that might be a lazy pronunciation but pen-i-bont doesn't sound right; for that matter the 'bont' part meaning bridge is from the word 'pont' (soft mutation) but pen-i-pont sounds even worse. In at least one place I know called Pen-y-bont there is no actual bridge and as far as I know there never was and I've been informed that in that particular circumstance it means 'end of the lake' (because that's where it is - perhaps 'land bridge at the head of the lake') but I fear I'm waffling on a subject I don't really know very much about.

btw To be specific and avoid at least some confusion the Bridgend in Mid Glamorgan is Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr or so Wiki tells me.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Welsh_mutations

 
Brock
1390521.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:59 am Reply with quote

Celebaelin wrote:
Welsh y on its own means 'the' so it could crop up in any variety of backgrounds and presumably some of these constitute consonantal use but which particular ones are vowel uses and which consonant uses I cannot say.


It forms a syllable on its own, so it's a vowel (irrespective of how it's pronounced). A consonant can't form a syllable on its own.

 
suze
1390525.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 pm Reply with quote

Brock wrote:
A consonant can't form a syllable on its own.


Hmm.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1390526.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:21 pm Reply with quote

That indeed strikes me as quite some sweeping statement to make about 7,139 languages spoken by wait...

https://countrymeters.info/de/World

7,921,216,400 people right this moment.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


Last edited by AlmondFacialBar on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
Brock
1390527.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:29 pm Reply with quote

It's not a statement about any language, it's a statement about phonology. However, as suze cleverly pointed out, it's incorrect because of the existence of syllabic consonants as in "hmm".

My original point still stands, though: "y" as in Welsh "Pen-y-bont" forms a syllable on its own, and is therefore clearly a vowel, not a consonant.

 

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