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Harry Dunn

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1332712.  Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:18 pm Reply with quote

We had spent a couple of nights in Ottowa (where you can turn right on some reds) so if anything I was not turning when I could

I did get stopped by that police on that trip, on the way down to NH. We were doing 110 in a 90 after about 15 minutes of pidgeon french / pidgeon english conversation he just told me to stay under 100 and I'll be fine

1332767.  Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:23 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
15 minutes of pidgeon french / pidgeon english conversation

"Roo, roo"
"Roo, roo"


1332785.  Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:59 am Reply with quote

I have found myself on the wrong side of the road over here once or twice, mainly due to some spectacularly confusing one-way systems (Bristol, I'm looking at you here!) and partly due to the ennui occaisioned by hours and hours of driving, day after day.

1332992.  Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:01 am Reply with quote

Rather to my surprise, we learn today that the British Foreign Office has made "strong representations" to Washington that Mrs Sacoolas should never have been granted diplomatic status.

Dominic Raab states that the Americans now accept the British argument, although the US authorities have neither confirmed nor denied this. Whether this moves us any nearer to Mrs Sacoolas actually being brought back to Britain in manacles I'm not sure. Would it play well with the Trump constituency if he were seen to be letting Britain give him orders?

1332995.  Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:43 am Reply with quote

No it wouldn't. They'd expect him to push back. They're pretty mindless that way.

1333514.  Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:39 am Reply with quote

So Trump had the driver of the car all lined up in another room to speak to the parents when the parents went to speak to him.

They turned him down. Good for them. Personal apologies are not the point.

1333527.  Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:02 am Reply with quote

What is the point?

1333543.  Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:39 am Reply with quote

The point is that the woman should be returned to the UK to face charges, as she promised the police she would stay there and she has no diplomatic immunity.

Why would Harry Dunn's parents lend any credibility to a blatant attempt to manipulate them?

1333577.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:30 am Reply with quote

Is there really a need to return to the UK though?
The maximum sentence for what has happened is 5 years in prison, so all that is really needed is to plead guilty by proxy as soon as the summons is served, then accept the resulting ban (which is the likely outcome).
The police have her record of events, so she doesnít need to be interviewed. I have a feeling that the Dunn family have had some poor advice while they are obviously grieving, and that has created a circus that isnít helping anyone other than the lawyers.

1333578.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:35 am Reply with quote

I may be reading your post wrong but it looks an awful lot like you're stating this is the fault of the grieving family rather than the woman who drove on the wrong side of the road, caused an accident and then left the country when she said she wouldn't - under the guise of diplomatic immunity she either didn't have or shouldn't have been granted.
Just because the family hasn't sat by quietly doesn't put them in any way in the wrong.

1333581.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:20 am Reply with quote

Not sure what gives you that impression, what happened was a tragic accident, at worst it was as a result of careless driving, which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years - by an early plea that will be reduced by a third meaning even if she drove right on the limit of dangerously she would expect 20 months serving 10. But as we have discussed here the root of the accident is something that is easily done, so what is the likelihood of the accident attracting the maximum sentence?
What will returning to the U.K. give?

1333602.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:50 am Reply with quote

You are of the view that it was careless driving, which it may be. But that's for a court to decide. We have not heard if there were any other factors, and she has made herself unavailable for drinlk/drugs testing. These other factors might make a court decide it was dangerous driving rather than careless driving. The difference in law is distinct - it is the difference between falling "below" what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and falling "far below" what would be expected of a competent and careful driver. It could easily be argued that turning out of a junction into the path of a motorbike by driving on the wrong side of the road is far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver. A court would explore the evidence and any other factors and consider which (if any) offence has been committed.

Death by dangerous driving is a very serious offence which carries a sentence of up to 14 years and an unlimited fine.

Then there is the detail that she would [now] be unlikely to get bail, because she is patently a flight risk whose assurances that she will remain available cannot be trusted.

Of course to date the accused has not given a plea, so we don't actually know if she'd plead guilty. She is probably conscious that if she admits fault, but refuses to return to the UK to face trial, she lays herself open to a civil case in the US courts (because she refuses to stand before a UK court). That could result in a damages award in the several hundreds of thousands of dollars region, with the NSA and US Givernment also facing "pain and suffering" claims for their part in aidoing and abetting her illegal departure from the UK.

The simplest thing overall would be for the US to return her to the UK in the same manner the US has demanded from other countries in the reversed circumstances (except that in those circumstances the individuals did actually HAVE diplomatic immunity).


1333606.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:10 am Reply with quote

and she has made herself unavailable for drinlk/drugs testing.

It was my understanding that she initially was very cooperative with the police at the scene of the accident - which is where the test for sobriety would have taken place, are you suggesting that was not the case?
Of course to date the accused has not given a plea

She has neither been summoned, nor (more relevantly) has she been charged with any offence, so we also don't know if indeed the CPS will pursue a case based on the likelihood of acheiving a conviction, so it is pure speculation on both sides of the argument.

One thing we do know, is that she isn't the first person in a foreign country where they drive on a different side of the road to that you are used to, that has entered a road from a junction on the incorrect side, nor will she be the last. This is a tragic accident, and to suggest it is dangerous rather than careless is a bit over dramatic. Had she been fuelled with drink and drugs, then fair enough - it wold qualify as dangerous, but it was a simple mistake that had tragic consequences.

(apologies for cherry picking the comments, if there is an apparent misquote, it is unintentional - but they were the comments I was questioning)

edit -
(except that in those circumstances the individuals did actually HAVE diplomatic immunity).

she DID have diplomatic immunity while in the UK

1333607.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:20 am Reply with quote

I'm out of the loop on this particular story, but also today with having the librarian return, who was hit by the car way back in February and hearing the full details today from her, made me realise that even with the grainy CCTV footage from a shop of the accident, that with no way of getting the car's registration number, there's no way to prosecute. (and yes, I know that's a long sentence)

The librarian thinks the driver, turning right, was watching the oncoming cars, saw a break in the traffic - it's near a busy shopping strip - and didn't see her crossing the road.

The driver did get out briefly, said 'oh, you're ok', despite the librarian being knocked down, though not unconscious, and the two year old granddaughter screaming, and got back in her car and drove off.

Alexander Howard
1333612.  Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:41 am Reply with quote

I was hit by a van when cycling. The driver came out of a side road straight into me. He said he didn't see me, but it was a bright, sunny morning and I must have stood out as I was dressed entirely in black. I realise now that cyclists and pedestrians are invisible to some drivers.

I don't know if he was on the 'phone at the time: I did not have time to look in the moment I was sprawled on his bonnet.

My wife, who is wise in many things, has a theory that some people look through the windscreen as if it were a television screen and their brain acts as if nothing they see in it is real. I think we make patterns, and if something does not match the pattern, like a pedestrian where we want to drive, then we block it out.

The crash in Northamptonshire sounds more like a foreigner-forgetting-which-side-of-the-road thing. It happens on quiet roads with no other traffic to remind them. In the Highlands it is a real menace.


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