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The race for Number 10

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barbados
1324020.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:14 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
All of them, with the possible exception of Rory Stewart - I think he supports leaving the EU on the basis of the Withdrawal Agreement. The rest can't wait to get rid of it.

And the manifesto does not commit to leaving with an agreement - so lets try again, which of the candidates has torn up the manifesto?
Quote:
The policy hasn't changed - the party conference drafted it in such a fashion that it could be interpreted in different ways by different members of the Shadow Cabinet

That is not how a policy works, the policy is either support a second referendum (like the LibDems) or you dont (like the Conservative party) supporting it sometimes and not others is changing your policy depending on the way the wind is blowing (like the Labour Party)

 
tetsabb
1324021.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:14 pm Reply with quote

I was just discussing this Tory leadership election with my Slightly Famous Brother.
We agreed that leading them at the moment is very much a poisoned chalice. Try to sort out Brexit, guide the party into a General Election in which you might get annihilated....
Wouldn't you have to be mad to go for it?

Oh......

 
GuyBarry
1324025.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:27 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Quote:
All of them, with the possible exception of Rory Stewart - I think he supports leaving the EU on the basis of the Withdrawal Agreement. The rest can't wait to get rid of it.

And the manifesto does not commit to leaving with an agreement


Yes it does. We've already discussed this on the Brexit thread. Have you forgotten already? I posted the relevant quotes in post 1323449. The manifesto commits to an "orderly departure" and a "deep and special partnership" with the EU, several times. No-deal Brexit is neither of those things.

Quote:
That is not how a policy works, the policy is either support a second referendum (like the LibDems) or you dont (like the Conservative party) supporting it sometimes and not others is changing your policy depending on the way the wind is blowing (like the Labour Party)


I'm not here to defend the Labour party - I'm a Lib Dem voter, as you know. I'm just saying that out of the two main parties, the Labour party appears to be the less unprincipled one.

 
barbados
1324030.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:54 pm Reply with quote

No deal might not be one of those things, but the manifesto also does commit mainly to leaving the EU - if necessary without a deal.
So I ask again, which of the candidates are tearing up the manifesto that does allow for a no deal brexit (even though only one has suggested that is the way forward, and in the circumstances it does fit in with the manifesto.)

 
GuyBarry
1324031.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:00 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
No deal might not be one of those things, but the manifesto also does commit mainly to leaving the EU - if necessary without a deal.


Do I actually have to post the whole damned thing all over again?

The 2017 Conservative Party Manifesto wrote:
p.6 "We need to deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union and forge a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe."

p.8 "If we are going to make sure Britain emerges from Brexit as a strong and united nation, we will need strong leadership and good government: to get the right deal for Britain in Europe, to strike new trade deals around the world and to make sure our economy is strong for the years ahead."

p. 15 "As we leave the European Union, we want to negotiate a new deep and special partnership with the EU, which will allow free trade between the UK and the EUs member states."

p. 30 "Theresa May's Conservatives will deliver the best possible deal for Britain as we leave the European Union delivered by a smooth, orderly Brexit."

p. 31 "We are leaving the European Union. We want to ensure our departure is smooth and orderly and to agree a deep and special partnership with the 27 remaining member states."

p. 35 "We want to agree a deep and special partnership with the European Union."

p. 36 "As we leave the European Union, we will no longer be members of the single market or customs union but we will seek a deep and special partnership including a comprehensive free trade and customs agreement."

p. 36 "We believe it is necessary to agree the terms of our future partnership alongside our withdrawal, reaching agreement on both within the two years allowed by Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union."

p. 84 "With Theresa May and her team, we will secure the best possible deal with the European Union and chart a course to a new global future."


Please show me the part of the 2017 Conservative election manifesto that commits to leaving the EU without a deal.

 
barbados
1324032.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:06 pm Reply with quote

Now read the very first line of page 36.
we continue to believe NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL FOR THE UK

The whole of parliament has confirmed on 3 occasions now that the deal offered is a bad one for the UK.

 
GuyBarry
1324033.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:19 pm Reply with quote

And that one line entitles them to rip up the rest of their manifesto? If that's the case, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

If Parliament thinks it's a bad deal, then there needs to be a general election so that we can have a new Parliament. Changing the Tory leader will not change the composition of Parliament.

The Tories should stick behind the deal they've agreed, not run away from it because they're scared of Parliament. The way they've deserted Theresa May is shameful.

If they thought "no deal" was such a great idea, why wasn't it party policy in 2017?

 
barbados
1324034.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:34 pm Reply with quote

They don't think it's a good idea, and no one is suggesting they do.
The preferred option is, and always has been a deal. But the commitment in the manifesto was to leave the EU - in what way does no deal go against that?

 
GuyBarry
1324036.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:45 pm Reply with quote

The declared policy was "a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union" and "a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe".

No-deal Brexit is not "a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union", and no-deal Brexit is not "a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe".

Therefore no-deal Brexit is not Conservative party policy as expressed in the 2017 election manifesto.

 
barbados
1324037.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:54 pm Reply with quote

The declared policy was, and always has been to leave the EU. That is all. The desired option is with a deal, but the understanding is, and always has been that if the deal was not suitable then the UK would walk away, that is why they said the bit about no deal in the manifesto, and they kept repeating it throughout the negotiations.

This was backed up by things like the adjustment to the operation stack arrangements where they move the lorry park from the M20 to the M26 - this was contingency planning for a no deal outcome (it was also the only good thing to come from Brexit so far, but that is a different story)
The no deal contingency planning would not be necessary if no deal was not on the table.

 
GuyBarry
1324038.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:02 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
The declared policy was, and always has been to leave the EU. That is all. The desired option is with a deal, but the understanding is, and always has been that if the deal was not suitable then the UK would walk away, that is why they said the bit about no deal in the manifesto, and they kept repeating it throughout the negotiations.


So basically the Tories can put one line in their manifesto saying "if we want to, we'll walk away from all our manifesto commitments", and that makes it OK?

And people wonder why politicians are held in such low esteem.

 
barbados
1324039.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:10 pm Reply with quote

Oh for crying out loud!!!!

The Conservative party commitment is, was, and always has been to leave the EU following the referendum vote. That is all, nothing more nothing less.
The preferred method is with an agreement, and that is what they have been working for, but - as it says in the manifesto - the one that you keep only reading the bits you want - If the deal is not right, then they will walk away without an agreement.

What do you not understand about that, because that is what Esther McVey is suggesting we do - none of the others, just Esther McVey.

Now if you have nothing sensible to add kindly feel free not to add anything, because - as is often the case, no matter how many times you say something, it doesn't magically become the truth.

 
GuyBarry
1324040.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:17 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:

The Conservative party commitment is, was, and always has been to leave the EU following the referendum vote. That is all, nothing more nothing less.


Really?

https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

Theresa May wrote:
The next five years are the most challenging that Britain has faced in my lifetime.

Brexit will define us: our place in the world, our economic security and our future prosperity.

So now more than ever, Britain needs a strong and stable government to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people.

Now more than ever, Britain needs strong and stable leadership to make the most of the opportunities Brexit brings for hardworking families.

Now more than ever, Britain needs a clear plan.

This manifesto, Forward, Together: Our Plan for a Stronger Britain and a Prosperous Future will meet the great challenges of our time, beyond Brexit.

With this plan and with a strong hand through Brexit, we will build a stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain, for all of us.


Just read the damned thing, will you? It says nowhere that the UK will be taken out of the EU without a deal. The "no deal is better than a bad deal" stuff isn't a policy, it's a slogan. It's not a realizable proposition.

 
barbados
1324043.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:29 pm Reply with quote

first line of page 36. of the manifesto you suggest has been ripped up
we continue to believe NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL FOR THE UK
Just in case you missed it last time
That's

NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL FOR THE UK

I even typed it slowly for you to help you understand, I'm afraid I couldn't get it all down to single syllables, what with it being a direct quote and all that.

 
GuyBarry
1324044.  Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:37 pm Reply with quote

Thank you for confirming what I just said in post 1324040, immediately above yours:

Quote:
The "no deal is better than a bad deal" stuff isn't a policy, it's a slogan.


I think my point has been made. Good night.

 

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