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Anti-semitism in UK politics

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barbados
1314274.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:22 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:

Why don't we hear so much about these issues in the Conservative Party as we do about comparable issues in the Labour Party? Because the overwhelmingly Conservative-supporting national press chooses not to write about them.

Just to return to this point (I would have addressed earlier, but it took me a little work to confirm what I heard yesterday)
There was no one from the "right wing" media that prompted Tom Watson yesterday to urge people to stay and fight their corner, and that there were parts of the Labour Party that he no longer recognised.
There is a bullying culture in the party, and that has escalated since Corbyn became leader. Nothing to do with the media, everything to do with the people that are behaving that way.

 
Alfred E Neuman
1314277.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:49 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Very much centrist, yes there are right wingers in the party, the party are not right wing in the same way that Tony Blair’s party was not left wing.

Every description I’ve seen either describes the Tories as right or centre-right. I think you’ll find that your defining them as “very much centrist” is very much in the minority.

Redefining left and right in order that you don’t have to apologise for being right wing when you find yourself agreeing with conservative policies seems a bit extreme.

 
barbados
1314278.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 am Reply with quote

That will be me misreading the question.
They are centre-right

 
Alexander Howard
1314282.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:47 am Reply with quote

I think we are talking about totally different scales. I don't believe that there is a legitimate way to talk of 'left' and 'right' in politics (as I commented above) but there are two or three ways in which the terms have been used in this thread. It is like arguing over the shape of a tyre when one is talking about a rubber ring and the other a city in the Lebanon.

If you take ideas current in the Conservative party and take them to an extreme you end up with a Libertarian, or perhaps an Anarchist, so your one-dimensional right-left scale is from Anarchist to Communist.

If your poles are Fascist to Communist then that is a scale entirely within the spectrum of socialism, where Conservatives and LibDems aren't anywhere on it.

 
suze
1314283.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:48 am Reply with quote

That rather depends where you place the centre.

Americans place the centre somewhere to the right of where Swedes place it. Americans believe that the Democrats are a left wing "socialist" party, but the Democrats stand further right than do Moderaterna, who are the main conservative-type party in Swedish politics.

Ask an American to name a centrist politician, and she might say Hillary Clinton. But if Mrs Clinton were involved in European politics, she would undoubtedly place herself in the conservative-type party of whichever country. Ask a Swede to do the same, and she'd probably name someone whose positions line her up with the Labour Party of Tony Blair.

While there is a (very small) racist far right party in Sweden, the stances of such as Farage and Rees-Mogg are simply not found there, any more than the stances of such as Corbyn are found in mainstream American politics.

Even in Britain, the centre moves. Heath considered himself to sit right-of-centre, and by the standards of the time so he was. Even so, he was some way to the left of Blair who considered himself left-of-centre.

The problem we have in British politics at the moment is that the centre has largely been abandoned. In the days when Blair faced a young Cameron at PMQs every week, it was quite hard to tell which of them stood a millimeter which side of the centre. But now that it's a beleaguered May, forced by circumstance to pay far more attention to the likes of Rees-Mogg than she reallly wants to, facing Corbyn each week, you could drive a double decker bus through the centre without running either of them over.

 
cnb
1314284.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:55 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
But now that it's a beleaguered May, forced by circumstance to pay far more attention to the likes of Rees-Mogg than she reallly wants to, facing Corbyn each week, you could drive a double decker bus through the centre without running either of them over.


There are 8000 buses in London. How many do you need to get both of them?

 
barbados
1314291.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:21 am Reply with quote

When you sit so far to the left, those to the right of you are not necessarily right wing.

 
barbados
1314368.  Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:38 am Reply with quote

It isn’t often that a politician deserves a golfers clap for a comeback
However Jess Phillips has just been told she should leave the party because she doesn’t support the leadership, her response was “should Jeremy Corbyn have left the party in 1996?” The caller said “of course not” so Jess then asked “why not?” cue awkward silence

 
suze
1314381.  Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:18 am Reply with quote

I quite like Jess Phillips. Maybe an MP shouldn't really be making Tweets like this one, but I'm sure many of us can sympathize. I don't know whether she is remotely tempted to join the new grouping, but I'm sure it would be pleased to have her on board.

Meanwhile, another MP has left the Labour Party this morning. This is Ian Austin (Dudley North), whose father was of Jewish heritage should this be relevant. He says that he does not intend to join the new grouping and will sit as an Independent, but another Labour MP has told the BBC that Mr Austin is "no loss" and that he "fought the last election under false pretences, using the Labour brand".

 
barbados
1314382.  Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:38 am Reply with quote

Is that other MP John McDonnell - the one that broke the news to Mr Austin yesterday.
He did mention in conversation with Jess Phillips that comment was the one that made his mind up - so much for it being the right wing media that is fabricating the claims.

 
suze
1314386.  Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:47 am Reply with quote

That would make sense, wouldn't it, but it actually isn't. It's one Chris Williamson (Derby North), who is seen as closer to Mr Corbyn than to Mr McDonnell.

Mr Austin was one of just three Labour MPs who voted with the government on The Deal. As such, he doesn't really fit in with the new grouping's Remain-ist leanings and he says that is the main reason why he will not be joining it.

 
barbados
1314388.  Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:20 am Reply with quote

He said very much the same - and it is probably why Stephen Lloyd hasn't joined them.
I kind of got from the undertone of the conversation that once Brexit is out of the way he will join with the others as it is only that issue that seperates him from them - or rather his constituents and the independent group.

I do wonder how much longer Jess Phillips will hang out, she is very much up for the fight from within - but she didn't discount the idea of jumping ship in the future if things don't improve in the party (and by improve the implication is that Momentum are removed from the party.)

 

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