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Anti-semitism in UK politics

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'yorz
1314182.  Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:14 am Reply with quote

Better a dedicated thread than clogging up existing ones.

This regards the unabated attacks on Labour about the apparent virulent anti-semitism among its members/MPs.
Is the Conservative Party completely untainted in that respect?

This wiki-page suggests the opposite.

From elsewhere this quote:

Quote:
YouGov polls done in 2015 and again in 2017 found that Tory voters are more likely to hold negative views about Jews than Labour voters. For example, in 2015, 31% Conservatives thought Jews chase money more than other Britons. In 2017, the figure went down to 22%. For Labour the figures were 22% and 14%.


Source

Related article in the New Statesman.

So - why don't I hear anything about the Right's stance on the subject?

 
Jenny
1314199.  Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:31 pm Reply with quote

I think this thread belongs in WFHIT so I'm moving it...

I'll leave a shadow topic in the old forum in case anybody doesn't spot the move.

 
barbados
1314204.  Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:53 pm Reply with quote

The big problem is not that some people are anti semitic (in this context - of course being anti semitic is wrong). The problem is the Labour Party have put themselves behind an anti Israeli leader, and much in the same way that the likes of Nigel Farage have given credibility to the racists, Corbyn's views do the same about Jews.
Much in the same way that I don't believe that Farage's views are per se "racist" I don't believe that Corbyn is an anti semite - but, those that back him take his views on Israel as the green light to extend that to Jews. But because Corbyn is only the front man for those that are running the show in the Labour Party, he is powerless to stop them, and all he does is come out with the same soundbites about how the party will not tolerate the behaviour, then doing nothing more about it.

Perhaps the breakaway is going to be a good thing, because those that back Corbyn can continue to do so without it actually having any effect on the real politics, and there will be a return to more moderate politics.

The reason we don't hear about this from the right is twofold - there are really no "right-wing" parties in the UK, and the Conservative dont make the likes of Javid, and Raab aren't made to feel unwelcome in their party

 
suze
1314223.  Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:26 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
The reason we don't hear about this from the right is twofold - there are really no "right-wing" parties in the UK, and the Conservative dont make the likes of Javid, and Raab aren't made to feel unwelcome in their party


I might dispute that there are no right wing parties in the UK. Far right organizations like the BNP, Britain First, and the National Front do still exist, much as they are very small and for the most part low profile.

But UKIP, Farage's new vehicle the craply named Brexit Party, and indeed the Conservative Party are right wing parties. And indeed, all of them do have their moments of flirtation with the far right.


Sajid Javid does not identify as Muslim; his parents were Muslim but he is non-religious. Dominic Raab does not identify as Jewish; his father was Jewish but he is a member of the Church of England.

Baroness Warsi of Dewsbury, who does identify as Muslim, asserts that Islamophobia is an issue in the Conservative Party, and others have asserted that so is anti-Semitism. Derek Laud has previously asserted that neither being black nor being gay is exactly helpful if one wishes to get on in the Conservative Party, and he has switched his allegiance to the LibDems.

Why don't we hear so much about these issues in the Conservative Party as we do about comparable issues in the Labour Party? Because the overwhelmingly Conservative-supporting national press chooses not to write about them.

 
'yorz
1314226.  Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:50 pm Reply with quote

I guess Mr Corbyn doesn't like the tit-for-tat approach and refrains from telling Ms May to stop being a bloody hypocrite because of such-and-such reason.
But thanks, suze - you confirmed what I have been thinking for quite a while - the national press for some reason is consciously/deliberately complicit in the hollowing-out of Mr Corbyn's stature as leader of the Labour Party.
I am not talking about Corbyn's leadership, how he's (not) handling things - just the deliberate undermining of his leadership. What their reasoning is for their uneven reporting on the subject - no idea.

 
barbados
1314237.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:20 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
barbados wrote:
The reason we don't hear about this from the right is twofold - there are really no "right-wing" parties in the UK, and the Conservative dont make the likes of Javid, and Raab aren't made to feel unwelcome in their party


I might dispute that there are no right wing parties in the UK. Far right organizations like the BNP, Britain First, and the National Front do still exist, much as they are very small and for the most part low profile.

But UKIP, Farage's new vehicle the craply named Brexit Party, and indeed the Conservative Party are right wing parties. And indeed, all of them do have their moments of flirtation with the far right.


Sajid Javid does not identify as Muslim; his parents were Muslim but he is non-religious. Dominic Raab does not identify as Jewish; his father was Jewish but he is a member of the Church of England.

Baroness Warsi of Dewsbury, who does identify as Muslim, asserts that Islamophobia is an issue in the Conservative Party, and others have asserted that so is anti-Semitism. Derek Laud has previously asserted that neither being black nor being gay is exactly helpful if one wishes to get on in the Conservative Party, and he has switched his allegiance to the LibDems.

Why don't we hear so much about these issues in the Conservative Party as we do about comparable issues in the Labour Party? Because the overwhelmingly Conservative-supporting national press chooses not to write about them.

All of the right wing organisations you mention are irrelevant organisations, they are the mouthpiece of people who have nothing better to do.
The problem is not the "right wing media", it is Corbyn's puppeteers, they are the ones that are causing the problem.
But judging from 'yorz's response she is happy to point the finger at the messenger rather than the real cause. It isn't the fault of the right wing media that the Labour party cannot sort out the problem, all the needed to do was sit down with the board of deputies two years ago and kick out the editing the NEC did to the IHRA definition of what constitutes antisemitism and act upon the complaints they received. The Labour Party, in particular Corbyn, chose not to do that, and much in the way that Tim Farron was the cause of his homophobe allegations, Corbyn is the cause of the antisemitism problems in the Labour party.

 
GuyBarry
1314238.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:24 am Reply with quote

I would also point out that two of the MPs who have just defected from the Labour Party have directly cited antisemitism as one of their reasons for doing so. None of the former Tory MPs have.

 
Alfred E Neuman
1314245.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:48 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
All of the right wing organisations you mention are irrelevant organisations, they are the mouthpiece of people who have nothing better to do.

Id not call the party which is currently running the country irrelevant.

 
Alexander Howard
1314248.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:55 am Reply with quote

Well, racism isn't a black and white issue.

Anti-Semitism in society or politics an cover a wide range. There is basic behind-his-back name-calling where Fred refers to a colleague as a 'sausage-dodger' in the same way he called another 'lardy' or 'swot', and that is rude but not necessarily malicious. Then there is passing someone over for a position because 'I want someone I can trust' which means 'someone as much like me as possible'.

It steps up a notch if there is actual malice, or if Fred begins to attribute negative attributes to a Jewish colleague just on the basis of his being Jewish. When Fred embraces 'identity politics' then he will not see individuals any more but elements of a collective 'Jewry'.

Then come the conspiracy theories. These are particularly vicious. We all know what they are, and isn't it frightening that we are familiar with them? I once had someone (Labour-leaning) talk to me at length about how he opposes all forms of racism, and then went on to tell me that the Rothschilds are behind all the evil in the world. Somehow he had heard this in the echo-chamber of social media and did not see it for what it was.

The 'Jewish conspiracy' has been part of the socialist movement since its inception. If you believe class struggle is the driver of history it is easy to class all people in one group as representative of it (that is today's identity politics in a nutshell) and then it is a short jump to equating 'Jew' with 'banker' (and I have heard people do that even today, in defiance of all reality), and therefore with 'class enemy'. There were many early speeches from early Labour leaders to that effect. It led to the pogrom in Tredegar in 1911.

Mosley left the Labour Party when his bid for leadership failed, and what his blackshirts did in the East End is notorious.

Now it is rising again. It just takes enough people to believe a mad idea and it becomes respectable, institutionalised.


Last edited by Alexander Howard on Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total

 
barbados
1314253.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:15 am Reply with quote

Alfred E Neuman wrote:
barbados wrote:
All of the right wing organisations you mention are irrelevant organisations, they are the mouthpiece of people who have nothing better to do.

Id not call the party which is currently running the country irrelevant.

Neither would I.
I would suggest they are not right wing.

 
franticllama
1314254.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:34 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Alfred E Neuman wrote:
barbados wrote:
All of the right wing organisations you mention are irrelevant organisations, they are the mouthpiece of people who have nothing better to do.

Id not call the party which is currently running the country irrelevant.

Neither would I.
I would suggest they are not right wing.


Interesting assertion. May I ask what political leaning you believe them to have and why?

 
barbados
1314255.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:01 am Reply with quote

Very much centrist, yes there are right wingers in the party, the party are not right wing in the same way that Tony Blairs party was not left wing.

 
Alexander Howard
1314257.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:20 am Reply with quote

Why 'left and right'? Why not 'up and down' or 'north and south'? What does it mean? Is it 'regard for the individual' v 'regard for the collective', or 'regard for tradition' v 'tear it down and start again', or just 'what I think' v 'what other people think'? (Don't say 'love v hate': everyone thinks he is the lover and all others are haters, and despise them for it.)

Actually though, why should anyone think political ideas are one-dimensional? Ideas are in-out, left-right, north-south-east-west-up-down and springing into unknown dimensions. To categorise ideas and movements by "left-right" is no more than a way to disregard every subtlety and call to think for yourself, and that is not even one-dimensional but none-dimensional: 'I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space'.

 
dr.bob
1314266.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:10 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
Why 'left and right'?


As is so often the case, you can blame the French.

According to wikipedia, the terms "left" and "right" were first coined during the French Revolution of 1789. In the National Assembly, supporters of the king (i.e. conservatives with a small "c") sat on the President's right-hand side, whilst supporters of the revolution (the 'tear it down and start again' brigade) sat on his left.

 
PDR
1314273.  Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:06 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:

There is basic behind-his-back name-calling where Fred refers to a colleague as a 'sausage-dodger' in the same way he called another 'lardy' or 'swot', and that is rude but not necessarily malicious.


I would just point out that while "sausage dodger" may not be said with malicious intent, is very much IS something that should result in mandatory disciplinery action if it was said in the workplace, because religion and race are both protected characteristics within the meaning of the Equality Act.

As such calling someone a sausage dodger would be illegal abuse regardless of intent, whereas "lardy" or "swot" would not (neither weight nor intellect veing protected characteristics). If the recipient was sufficiently offended or intimidated then this alone very much could be gross misconduct and as such a dismissal matter.

PDR

 

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