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Do androids dream of electric cars?

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cnb
1325996.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:31 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
Sources for the above, please, cnb.


For which part? The reason why they changed the grant conditions?

If so, it was in the press at the time, but the aim of the change is clear when you realise that they didn't scrap the grant for all plug-in hybrids, they just changed the criteria to exclude cars with less than 70 miles of battery-only range.

Currently, there are no hybrids that qualify, but there may be in the future. The BMW i3 with range extender would probably have qualified if it was still available, but it's been discontinued in Europe.

 
cnb
1325997.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:38 am Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
I then asked about prices, and the smallest hybrid or electric car they make now (which would actually be too small for us as Woodsman's 6'4" height requires a tad more room) is currently $35k+ for a basic, and a pointlessly chunky SUV that we wouldn't buy anyway was $53k+. I can't see us spending that kind of money on a new car, so I think we'll be keeping the V70 petrol car going for as long as we can.


In Europe there are more models available, one of which, the V60 (an estate slightly smaller then the V70) is launching in the US soon. It'll still be expensive though.

 
barbados
1325999.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 am Reply with quote

It was my understanding that the PHEV grant was removed to allow an increase in the EV grant because the PHEVs were proving too popular.

 
cnb
1326022.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:55 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
It was my understanding that the PHEV grant was removed to allow an increase in the EV grant because the PHEVs were proving too popular.


There was only one grant, payable on any vehicle with plug in charging, whether or not it also had a combustion engine. The battery range criteria were changed and the grant reduced, fully electric or not.

 
barbados
1326033.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:26 pm Reply with quote

There wasn't two, one for Cat 1 (full electric) and another for Cat 2 and 3 (for hybrid) then?

 
cnb
1326041.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:04 pm Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
There wasn't two, one for Cat 1 (full electric) and another for Cat 2 and 3 (for hybrid) then?


I'd slightly misunderstood the old scheme, but the effect of the changes remains as I described. The grant for all purely electric cars that were previously eligible for a category 1 grant now get a smaller grant than before, and no vehicle gets a larger grant than before.

The old category 1 criteria haven't actually changed other than in name. The category always included plug in hybrid vehicles that met the 70 mile battery range criteria, and the i3 range extender did qualify. Category 1 used to get a 4500 grant and the new scheme only gives 3500.

Category two included all the other plug in hybrids available, and also, in theory, any purely electric vehicles with a range less than 70 miles. This category is no longer eligible for a grant.

So strictly speaking, the rules did not, and still don't make any distinction between purely electric and hybrid vehicles, it's just about the range on battery.

 
barbados
1326043.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:21 pm Reply with quote

I think that could have been why Jenny was asking for a source for your information.
If you look at the categories, cat 1 - the one that still attracts the rebate - are exclusively fully electric, while those in cat 2/3 are plug-in hybrids

 
dr.bob
1326313.  Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:58 am Reply with quote

If anyone's interested in a source, here's an explanation of the changes that came into effect in November.

It lists the 3 categories of cars. As cnb says above, that actual categories haven't changed, simply the level of subsidy. Cat1 has seen its subsidy reduced, while cat2 & 3 no longer receive a subsidy at all.

 
dr.bob
1326766.  Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 am Reply with quote

According to a report on Bloomberg.com, there are currently almost 425,000 fully electric buses worldwide at the end of last year.

Of these, around 421,000 are in China.

Europe's 2,250 electric buses are slightly more numerous than the USA's 300, but they both have an awful long way to go to catch up.

 
cnb
1326773.  Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:26 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Europe's 2,250 electric buses are slightly more numerous than the USA's 300, but they both have an awful long way to go to catch up.


For something like 6 or 7 years until 2017, the Chinese government was providing a subsidy that brought the price of electric buses down to less than the price of a diesel equivalent (as long as it was a Chinese-made bus, of course). The subsidies have since been reduced, but the very high early subsidies allowed Chinese manufacturers to develop the technology and build production capacity.

Most of the European bus manufacturers have only launched their first electric models in the last year or two, or have yet to do so. Once there are buses designed for European markets, with local support and spare parts, available the numbers will probably pick up fast.

 
crissdee
1327306.  Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:46 pm Reply with quote

FYI, my 12 year old, 650, near-lunar mileage car has just done around 650 miles in four days, never missing a beat, and giving me in excess of 50 mpg even fully loaded on the motorway.

Even with my new funds from the house sale sitting in my account, why TF would I think of getting rid of it for an EV?

 
dr.bob
1327331.  Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:52 am Reply with quote

Right now it makes no sense for you. Although an EV could certainly do 650 miles in four days (163 miles per day is well within the range of most modern EVs) and it's cheaper to refuel an electric car than a diesel one, the initial capital costs make it uneconomic for you (and lots of other people) right now.

That will almost certainly change at some point in the future. Over time a thriving second-hand EV market is bound to develop, which will bring down the capital costs. Also, if the government stick to their plans to lower emissions in the future, they will almost certainly take measures to make it more expensive to own cars which produce CO2 emissions. At some point, the economic argument for you will tip in favour of owning an EV. How long that will take depends on a lot of factors, so it's hard to predict with any certainty.

 
dr.bob
1327334.  Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:01 am Reply with quote

I was going to make a post this morning to this thread anyway, and it's kind of related to cirssdee's point since it concerns second-hand EVs. One point that was raised upthread about buying a second-hand EV is the cost of replacing the battery. I've come across a recent report by Nissan which is based on data they've collected over the last few years about their Leaf EVs. Based on the data they've collected, it seems the batteries in their EVs are lasting way longer than anyone expected. Francisco Carranza, managing director of Renault-Nissan Energy Services, announced recently that they fully expect the batteries to last longer than the cars themselves.

I'm not entirely sure I entirely agree with Mr Carranza that the average life of a car is 10 years, but his prediction that EV batteries will last for 22 years sounds very encouraging.

In related news, Volkwagen recently announced that the company now expects the battery packs in its upcoming line of ID cars to last "the life of the cars."

 
Jenny
1327354.  Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:34 am Reply with quote

Well that's interesting, and corresponds with the only example I know personally of a Prius whose battery outlasted the actual car.

 
cnb
1327359.  Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:57 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I entirely agree with Mr Carranza that the average life of a car is 10 years, but his prediction that EV batteries will last for 22 years sounds very encouraging.


That's almost true in Japan, where cars last an average of about 13 years, but globally it's just over 20. He may have confused average life with average age.

 

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