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Do androids dream of electric cars?

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dr.bob
1325746.  Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:05 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Prior to 1325427?
How about post 1325336
dr.bob wrote:
The fact that this was no surprise is based on your track record for making arguments based on no factual evidence.
[snip]
I'd say that was "putting words in my mouth", but that'd probably make barbados go off on one since he seems to be in an odd mood at the moment.



Hmm, I notice you've taken once sentence out of a slightly larger paragraph. Just to elaborate, the full quote was:

dr.bob wrote:
I didn't "just heckle". I pointed out that your argument had no basis in fact. The fact that this was no surprise is based on your track record for making arguments based on no factual evidence.


I've emphasised the bit where I tackled the comment rather than the man.

Also, the bit you've quoted was entirely factually accurate. As I explained in my reply to Jenny, in the recent discussion PDR continually made arguments for which he offered absolutely no factual evidence. If someone behaves badly, and someone else calls them out for bad behaviour, does that really count as "aiming at the man"?

barbados wrote:
need I look further?


I'm not entirely convinced this counts, so I wouldn't mind another example. Since, according to you, pretty much all of my communications with PDR have been aimed at the man rather than the comment, it should be pretty trivial for you to find a host of examples, no?

barbados wrote:
Although - just out of interest? why bring me into the argument?


That was after you'd spent 6 posts starting with post 1325183 pretending to not realise that I'd made a simple mistake so you could derail the thread with your pointless trolling.

 
Jenny
1325756.  Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:08 am Reply with quote

I have a few suggestions to make here, since we have now degenerated into pointless bickering.

Firstly - please don't make assertions without backing them up with sources: however well-known you think the material is, consider that it may be less well-known to people outside your field of experience.

Secondly - please don't nitpick over inessential details. Unless it is vital to the sequence of events, skim over it. Nitpicking is boring at best and mostly tedious. Let's all avoid being tedious.

Thirdly - please don't take disagreement personally, and as Oliver Cromwell once wrote in a letter to the general assembly of the Church of Scotland (3 August 1650), "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

Fourthly - consider that the person with whom you are arguing has areas of knowledge within their own areas of expertise about which you know nothing, and therefore it is possible that they are approaching the topic from an angle that includes things you didn't know you needed to consider - Donald Rumsfeld's unknown unknowns.



Fifthly - if you find yourself getting hot under the collar, step away from the keyboard and refrain from commenting, however wrong the other person is in your opinion. Use the time constructively by having a nice dinner with your family, watching something fun on TV, going for a walk, having a pint, playing a game, but don't become this person:

 
dr.bob
1325807.  Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 am Reply with quote

Amen!

 
PDR
1325951.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:51 am Reply with quote

Meanwhile in the news this morning there are good and less good reports on EVs. Firstly Jaguar Land Rover have decided to switch their Castle Bromwich factory to electric vehicle production, which the radio reports suggest include a "battery gigafactory" like the Tesla one (but I can't find a written cite for that).

But there is also an academic campaign by the Centre for Research into Energy Demand Solutions (CREDS) that says the existence of even electric cars is still a problem because of tyre/brake pollution, parking space and the challenges of providing charging infrastructure (both physical infrastructure and generating capacity). Their actual message appears to be that in future people must only travel where manual transport (feet, bikes) or public transport can get them. That would be a rather radical shift in our culture.

PDR

 
crissdee
1325955.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:36 am Reply with quote

There does seem to be an assumption on the part of a certain type of enviromental campaigner that all our driving, flying, etc is all just frivolous laziness, and that if we all just knuckled down and did some work, we could do everything on bicycles.

 
PDR
1325960.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:29 am Reply with quote

Well quite. I think it mainly comes from people who live in inner-city flats that are well served with public transport, who live within sort distances of their work (or are in jobs where physical presence its optional) and whose only leisure time activity is getting pissed or eating out (plus the odd play or movie) plus going to a gym/do sports. These people can't grasp that a lot of people simply don't fit that simplistic mould, that they have/need richer leisure lives and broader-based stimulation.

...and they will also get a shock when the environmental lobby realise that going to the gym and doing sports is an environmentally negative activity, so there should be a major campaign to tax physical activities like this to protect the environment.

PDR

 
barbados
1325962.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:32 am Reply with quote

Did I hear somewhere in the week that EV sales have dropped for the first time since 2014 yet they are now ahead of PHEVs for the first time.
It seems that the way forward for Audi is something called mild hybrids which AIUI are small petrol engines similar to fords ecoboost engines with some form of advanced stop start technology.

 
dr.bob
1325979.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:24 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
Did I hear somewhere in the week that EV sales have dropped for the first time since 2014


Depends on your definition of "EV" :) When I read the BBC report about it, I got the impression they meant all kinds of EVs.

However, when I followed the link in the story to the actual figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, I discovered that it's only plug-in hybrid vehicles which have seen a slump in sales, largely due to the government scrapping grants for plug-in hybrids. Sales of pure EVs are actually up by over 60% compared to the same time last year.

According to the BBC article, "Driving-up sales of fully electric vehicles is the top priority for the Department for Transport, hence its decision to scrap grants for hybrids last year which will have contributed to the decline of hybrid sales."

 
barbados
1325980.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:31 am Reply with quote

Iíll have a deeper look when I get home, not that I doubt your assessment, I did (in the quick browsing on my phone looking for confirmation) come across the mild hybrid offering from Audi who along with VW are quite heavily into diesel, just a bit awkward to read on a 12cm screen so raised but as it looked like something both you and par might be interested in

 
dr.bob
1325981.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:34 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
It seems that the way forward for Audi is something called mild hybrids which AIUI are small petrol engines similar to fords ecoboost engines with some form of advanced stop start technology.


Here's a good article about Audi's plans. One thing to note is that they're definitely developing pure EVs, with the article claiming that they will have 3 new EVs in production by next year.

However, it also mentions their "mild hybrid" technology that they're developing. Apparently this "recuperates power under deceleration or during a cruise which is then fed into the car's 48-volt electrical system. The engine is started (and stopped) using a water-cooled belt-driven starter generator, and the system allows engine-off coasting for up to 45 seconds at a time. The hefty starter allows the engine to be fired up instantly when the throttle pedal is touched, and a forward-facing camera allows the engine to restart itself in traffic - when traffic in front begins to move, for instance."

It seems like an awful lot of effort to go to if governments are actively encouraging everyone to switch to EVs in the not-too-distant future.

 
cnb
1325982.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:39 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
largely due to the government scrapping grants for plug-in hybrids.


They did this because manufacturers were making cars that met the criteria for subsidies and tax reductions, but weren't really reducing emissions.

The best selling plug-in hybrid was the Mitsubishi Outlander. A fairly large SUV with a 25 mile range on battery, and a 25-30mpg petrol engine for the rest of the time.
That's fine if people are using them mostly for short commutes, and making occasional long journeys, but when the government realised that high mileage company car drivers were buying them to save on tax, but driving mostly on the petrol engine, they changed the rules.

 
Jenny
1325985.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:53 am Reply with quote

Sources for the above, please, cnb.

I was chatting to a salesman in the Volvo dealership to which we take our 2004 V70 for servicing, and asked him about something I'd read that claimed Volvo was aiming for an all hybrid or electric lineup in the next decade. He said that was the aim but expressed doubts as to whether they could make it happen. I then asked about prices, and the smallest hybrid or electric car they make now (which would actually be too small for us as Woodsman's 6'4" height requires a tad more room) is currently $35k+ for a basic, and a pointlessly chunky SUV that we wouldn't buy anyway was $53k+. I can't see us spending that kind of money on a new car, so I think we'll be keeping the V70 petrol car going for as long as we can.

 
barbados
1325988.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:57 am Reply with quote

Thatíll be when the oil wells run dry then Jenny :)
Although Iím really surprised Volvo arenít further ahead in the game, they are pretty innovative when it comes to the car industry

 
Jenny
1325991.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:03 am Reply with quote

Quite possibly they have been encountering some of the difficulties discussed in this thread.

Frankly, given the thunderclouds hovering above the future, I'm quite hopeful that I will have shuffled off this mortal coil by the time I hit a century if not before, which give me no more than about thirty years.

 
cnb
1325994.  Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:11 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
It seems like an awful lot of effort to go to if governments are actively encouraging everyone to switch to EVs in the not-too-distant future.


In the UK they've removed the purchase subsidy for plug-in hybrids, but there's still plenty of incentive to have a hybrid car if it actually reduces emissions, as company car taxes are still CO2 based.

A higher rate taxpayer will pay £1880 in tax on a company-provided Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid, or £3920 on a petrol version.
The hybrid is more expensive to buy or lease, but the difference in the lease cost is only about £800 per year. Even if the driver has to reimburse the employer for the additional lease cost, he'll still save over £1000 per year.

Across Europe there's a fair bit of variation in the absolute level of car taxation rates, but most have a CO2- or fuel economy-based charging system.

 

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