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Life Imprisonment...or not?

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Zziggy
1295364.  Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:29 pm Reply with quote

crissdee wrote:
Zziggy wrote:
I don't think prisons should be a punishment, I think they should be rehabilitation.


There has to be an element of punishment there, either through harsh and uncomfortable treatment, or just the removal of liberty, or the legal system becomes a joke. We would effectively be saying;

"Don't do that! Or..................we'll help you not to want to do it again!"

That is not the legal system I want in this country.

But... why not?

 
GuyBarry
1295366.  Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:42 pm Reply with quote

Because there's supposed to be some sort of deterrent effect?

If people want to go to prison, it'll encourage them to commit crimes. I was talking to someone yesterday who appreciated being in prison because it kept him off alcohol. Since he's been out, he's been back on the drink again and he knows it's not doing him any good, but he doesn't want to go to a drug rehabilitation centre because it'll feel like being in prison again, with no control over his liberty.

 
crissdee
1295375.  Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:24 pm Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
crissdee wrote:
Zziggy wrote:
I don't think prisons should be a punishment, I think they should be rehabilitation.


There has to be an element of punishment there, either through harsh and uncomfortable treatment, or just the removal of liberty, or the legal system becomes a joke. We would effectively be saying;

"Don't do that! Or..................we'll help you not to want to do it again!"

That is not the legal system I want in this country.

But... why not?


I don't know how I can make that point any clearer. If the thought of being in prison is not a threat, then there is little point in sending people there at all.

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Actually prisoners who have been through a rehabilitative system where the only punishment aspect is the loss of liberty have much lower rates of reoffending and are more likely to leave prison as productive citizens. Surely that is exactly what you want from a legal system?


Yes, that is why I specified that loss of liberty is an acceptable level of punishment (in most cases anyway).

 
barbados
1295388.  Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:42 am Reply with quote

You made both of those points clear in your post criss.

 
Zziggy
1295519.  Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:07 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
Because there's supposed to be some sort of deterrent effect?

If people want to go to prison, it'll encourage them to commit crimes. I was talking to someone yesterday who appreciated being in prison because it kept him off alcohol. Since he's been out, he's been back on the drink again and he knows it's not doing him any good, but he doesn't want to go to a drug rehabilitation centre because it'll feel like being in prison again, with no control over his liberty.

So you're saying the fact that prison is so awful is keeping your mate from getting the help he needs to beat addiction. Sounds peachy.

If prison were properly reformed to a rehabilitative model rather than this weird vengeance quest society currently has it set up as, then no, people would not end up committing more crimes.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works

https://www.economist.com/international/2017/05/27/too-many-prisons-make-bad-people-worse-there-is-a-better-way

 
crissdee
1295551.  Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:29 pm Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
So you're saying the fact that prison is so awful is keeping your mate from getting the help he needs to beat addiction.


Only because the treatment is as bad as being in prison, which it should not be, nor is there any reason why it should.

 
filofax
1295747.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:31 am Reply with quote

Quote:
If the thought of being in prison is not a threat, then there is little point in sending people there at all.



except


Quote:
"....we'll help you not to want to do it again!"


I would prefer someone who doesn't want to commit a crime to someone who is afraid to commit a crime.

 
crissdee
1295772.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:23 am Reply with quote

Either sounds good to me, and I know which is easier to acheive.

 
barbados
1295774.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:30 am Reply with quote

If only there was a way to make those that didn't fit in the "dont commit crime because they don't want to" not commit crime because they are afraid of the consequences......

 
Alexander Howard
1295776.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:17 am Reply with quote

Trying to justify one punishment or another in the individual case is an impossible task. Retribution? Keeping the evil out of society? A good lesson? Ineffable justice?

George Savile explained it in 1750 that "Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen."

 
AlmondFacialBar
1295778.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:35 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
Trying to justify one punishment or another in the individual case is an impossible task. Retribution? Keeping the evil out of society? A good lesson? Ineffable justice?

George Savile explained it in 1750 that "Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen."


Only if the death penalty had any deterrent effect at all, American crime statistics would look very different from the way they do...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
barbados
1295779.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:17 am Reply with quote

Isn't the deterrent more related to the likelihood of getting punished rather than the severity of the punishment?

 
Jenny
1295789.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:55 am Reply with quote

Your likelihood of being arrested and convicted for homicide in the US is fairly high, and the death penalty applies in many states. Doesn't seem to deter.

 
barbados
1295791.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:01 pm Reply with quote

According to tge Washington Post in June 2018
Quote:
Out of 54,868 homicides in 55 cities over the past decade, 50 percent did not result in an arrest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/unsolved-homicide-database/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5d6945633af8&city=chicago

 
Jenny
1295794.  Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:22 pm Reply with quote

You're ignoring the far higher arrest and conviction rates in states in the US outwith the larger cities. In my own state of Maine, only 10.4% of homicides do not result in arrest and conviction according to http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2013/01/rates-of-unsolved-murder-by-state.html, and the percentage is 3.9% in Idaho. The average rate is therefore higher than 50%

 

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