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Pronunciation of Gill

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Hairy Scot
1290369.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:31 pm Reply with quote

I think that Stephen Fry pronouncing (RP perhaps?) "gill" the same way for both the fishy part and the liquid measure may well be incorrect.
In Scotland the word is certainly pronounced differently depending on which of the two is the subject.
The fishy part has a hard "g"whereas the liquid measure uses a soft "g" (a "j" sound).

 
'yorz
1290377.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 pm Reply with quote

Which reminded me that a female ferret is called 'a jillie'. Won't be many Cloggies who know that. :-)

 
suze
1290378.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:24 pm Reply with quote

The breathing organ of fishes is always pronounced with /g/, and the word for a lady ferret is always pronounced with /ʤ/ (ie "jill"). Every dictionary I have consulted wants the unit of liquid measure also to be "jill", but it isn't always.

Incidentally, just as there is no unanimity on the pronunciation, neither is there unanimity on just how much liquid a gill is.

An English gill is one quarter of an English pint, and the traditional pub measure of hard liquor was one sixth of an English gill ie 24 milliliters. By now a pub measure in England is usually 25 milliliters.

A Scots gill was traditionally one quarter of a mutchkin, an obsolete Scottish unit equal to around three quarters of an English pint. The pub measure of hard liquor in Scotland was traditionally one quarter of a Scots gill ie 27 milliliters, although it later became one fifth of an English gill ie 28 milliliters.

Except in Glasgow, that is, where it was one quarter of an English gill ie 36 milliliters as it remains in Ireland. By now, most bars in Scotland use 35 milliliter measures - although the Herald has reported more than once that short measure is rife in much of Scotland.

Hawick was unique. A Hawick gill was one half of a mutchkin, so bars in Hawick effectively served doubles.

 
crissdee
1290384.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:35 am Reply with quote

Which reminds me. Last Sunday, when I took my mum to our local for lunch, the barman used a measure for her wine, rather than just pouring it into a glass. Never seen that before.

 
Jenny
1290443.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:05 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:


A Scots gill was traditionally one quarter of a mutchkin, an obsolete Scottish unit equal to around three quarters of an English pint.


Now that is interesting, since an American pint is the same as the Scottish mutchkin.

 
Pickypete
1290455.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 pm Reply with quote

Hairy Scot wrote:

In Scotland the word is certainly pronounced differently depending on which of the two is the subject.
The fishy part has a hard "g"whereas the liquid measure uses a soft "g" (a "j" sound).


I'm not from that great land, and my parents both emanate from the southern regions of the realm (that's Devon and London) yet all of us use exactly that pronunciation.

 
Pickypete
1290457.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 pm Reply with quote

The change from 28ml to 25ml in pub measures was brought about by the harmonisation of European measures in bottle sizes. Bottles of spirits are now sold in metric volumes and in the pub trade are sold as a fixed number of shots depending on the bottle size. i.e. a 750ml bottle is sold as 30 shots for tax purposes. It's simply easier to calculate (yeah I know we've all got adding machines now) the tax exactly per bottle.

Crissdee, all pub wine glasses are supposed to have a revenue line showing the exact volume, like beer glasses. Either 125ml or 175ml. Again it's about revenue and bottle sizes. If, ahem, the lines have worn off the glasses then the barman would be obliged to use a measure to ensure the correct number of servings from the bottle (or box). Please don't tell me it was that awful tap wine.

 
crissdee
1290463.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:39 pm Reply with quote

At the thick end of five fecking quid a glass, it had better not be!!!!!

 
Pickypete
1290477.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:14 pm Reply with quote

That's London pub prices I'm afraid.

 
crissdee
1290479.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:27 pm Reply with quote

As I said, this was my local (technically Essex rather than London) and it wasn't that expensive last time I drank there.

 
suze
1290482.  Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:13 pm Reply with quote

I'm afraid the bottom line is "Don't drink wine in pubs".

Now OK, I've always been a beer drinker more than a wine drinker in any case. This is largely my mom's fault, because my first ever experience of wine was a very sweet and very nasty white wine that was her drink of choice in the early 80s. If I wanted to drink cough syrup, I'd drink cough syrup - but the experience gave me a perception of what wine is like that took a while to shift.

But beer is the beverage in which pubs specialize, and beer in pubs is usually pretty well kept. Wine can be extremely variable both in quality and price, and is depressingly often from a wine box cunningly hidden inside a wooden barrel.

 
Jenny
1290518.  Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:54 am Reply with quote

I really have tried for many years to like beer, but I don't. Many people have offered me different beers over the years, assuring me that they are really sweet and I would like them, but I find all beers and lagers taste revoltingly bitter and unpleasant to me. The only time I've ever managed to drink any was when well diluted by lemonade.

 

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