View previous topic | View next topic

Nerve agent attack

Page 2 of 5
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

'yorz
1277818.  Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:56 pm Reply with quote

So it's probability bordering on certainty...

 
bobwilson
1277822.  Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:13 pm Reply with quote

Just to throw a completely different slant on this - isn't it far better that governments resolve their differences with individuals who are causing/have caused them grief by attacking those individuals discretely without causing wider harm?

Let's not forget this chap was a spy - and whilst a country will happily round up people who drop bombs on them and cosset them in prison camps just until the end of hostilities, traditionally the penalty for spying is death. Clearly, the people who know about these things (Governments, military, intelligence agencies) consider spying to be more venal than even (for instance) annihilating an entire city.

If it's ok to kill OBL years after the event then surely it's just the same thing to kill Skripal in a similar "surgical strike"?

Now if we can just get ALL governments to specifically target the state players and stop throwing bombs around, wouldn't that be a better world to live in anyway?

 
crissdee
1277841.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:49 am Reply with quote

The problem is that this was very far from a "surgical strike". A 9mm Makarov to the back of the head would be a surgical strike, this has contaminated a wide swathe of Salisbury and compromised the health and wellbeing of hundreds of people. Whoever did it shows an unbelievably callous disregard for innocent bystanders. A pound of Semtex under the bench would at least have been cleaned up quicker, this may take weeks to decontaminate.

 
Alexander Howard
1277901.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:00 pm Reply with quote

Had the attack proceeded as intended, Sergei Skripal would have felt ill, sat on a park bench and passed away, treated by those who discovered him as no more than a retired man who has had a stroke.

However, the FSB seem to have a record of hiring clumsy idiots as assassins. Those who killed Alexander Litvinenko left traces of polonium in locations all over London.

 
brunel
1277912.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:44 pm Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
But if it is the Russian state that's behind those assination attempts (failed or not), why indeed leave a trail that can be followed back to them?
Why be so fucking blatant? What do they think/aim to achieve?

Given that there were broadcasters on Russian state television making rather transparent threats against those whom they declared as "traitors", and commenting about "many strange incidents with grave outcomes there" for those who went to live in the UK, I would say that being that blatant is a quite deliberate tactic. It is a tactic that is meant to intimidate and send a message that the Russian state has the means to kill anybody that it wants to, wherever they are and whatever protection they are being offered from the state they are living in.

 
crissdee
1277917.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:07 pm Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
Had the attack proceeded as intended, Sergei Skripal would have felt ill, sat on a park bench and passed away, treated by those who discovered him as no more than a retired man who has had a stroke.


And just how did they expect to do that with a nerve agent?

 
Alexander Howard
1277919.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:17 pm Reply with quote

crissdee wrote:
Alexander Howard wrote:
Had the attack proceeded as intended, Sergei Skripal would have felt ill, sat on a park bench and passed away, treated by those who discovered him as no more than a retired man who has had a stroke.


And just how did they expect to do that with a nerve agent?


A small dose, properly applied. The effect is to cause a seizure and death by cardiac arrest, which is common enough as a natural death and the actual proximate cause may mimic the symptoms of a stroke.

Litvinenko's death might has been passed off as natural but for the severity of the symptoms from no known pre-existing condition. When Markov was killed in 1978, his death had every appearance of a natural illness: had he not recounted to colleagues at the BBC that a stranger had stabbed him with an umbrella, it would have been assumed to be. In Salisbury, someone got the dose and application wrong. (I suppose that they could hardly practice or experiment.)

 
tetsabb
1277925.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:43 pm Reply with quote

Interesting remark from Bobwilson comparing Skripal to Osam Bin Laden. It is a bit rich seeing the West criticizing Russia for this action.

If we assume that it was someone high up in the Russian hierarchy that authorized the attempt on the Skripals,I can't fathom quite what they were actually trying to achieve.
Any thoughts?

 
crissdee
1277963.  Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:54 pm Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
crissdee wrote:
Alexander Howard wrote:
Had the attack proceeded as intended,


And just how did they expect to do that with a nerve agent?


A small dose, properly applied.


From what I'm hearing, and what I remember from NBC instruction in the army, this stuff is difficult/impossible to control once it's out. As I have said, there are much cleaner ways of doing the job.

 
bobwilson
1278094.  Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:11 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
this has contaminated a wide swathe of Salisbury and compromised the health and wellbeing of hundreds of people.


Has it though?

I haven’t really been following the story (I’ve got no plans to go Salisbury), but I was under the impression that the advice to the public was broadly along the lines of “this stuff is pretty nasty but a good wash with a normal detergent will get rid of any lingering traces”.

Put another way – the disruption has been caused by the response rather than by the activity. I’m not criticising the response – merely stating that, as with the millennium bug, the health and safety brigade have definitely had the upper hand over the “Keep Calm and Carry On” mob in this instance.

 
bobwilson
1278095.  Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:14 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
From what I'm hearing, and what I remember from NBC instruction in the army, this stuff is difficult/impossible to control once it's out. As I have said, there are much cleaner ways of doing the job.


On the contrary - nerve agents don't travel well. Once exposed to the atmosphere they quickly dissipate (hence the advice to just use a general detergent).

Biological agents would be the ones to worry about.

 
bobwilson
1278096.  Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:18 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
Interesting remark from Bobwilson comparing Skripal to Osam Bin Laden. It is a bit rich seeing the West criticizing Russia for this action.

If we assume that it was someone high up in the Russian hierarchy that authorized the attempt on the Skripals,I can't fathom quite what they were actually trying to achieve.
Any thoughts?


Probably the same thing that the Americans were trying to achieve with OBL - sending a message "we don't forget, we don't forgive, we will find you"

 
Jenny
1278154.  Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:11 am Reply with quote

I agree with bob wilson on this - the Russians are basically sending out a warning to other Russians who might think of changing sides.

 
'yorz
1278156.  Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:14 am Reply with quote

And apparently they don't give a shit if anybody sees what they're doing. On the news this morning they showed a Russian voting station where women every now and then chucked piles of ballot papers in the ballot box. At some point a bunch of balloons was positioned over the ceiling camera that filmed everything. Very bizarre.

 
Jenny
1278158.  Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:20 am Reply with quote

Isn't that the whole point of a warning, though? That everybody sees what you are doing and understands the purpose of it? And I doubt very much whether Putin gives a shit whether the rest of the world sees how his elections are fiddled. What is the rest of the world going to do about it? Nothing. And I don't know how much appetite there would be in Russia for another revolution. The last one was quite messy as I recall.

 

Page 2 of 5
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group