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Gaazy
90893.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:42 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Since trains from North Wales certainly go there, do they announce a train as terminating at "Birmingham Heol Newydd"?

We don't get that many announcements here, but many placenames in England which have Welsh names do appear on the screens.

It does appear, though, that the policy is haphazard - certainly London Euston doesn't appear also as 'Llundain Euston' (Birmingham, of course, not having a Welsh name), and, further afield, Edinburgh doesn't appear as 'Caeredin', nor Catterick as Catraeth; and you won't find Penbedw, Caerfaddon, Bryste, Caergrawnt, Rhydychen, Caerliwelydd, Caerwysg, Caerloyw, Caerefrog, Caersallog, Caerwrangon, Caergaint, Casgwent or Caerwynt either.

 
suze
90919.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:35 am Reply with quote

They clearly need someone to sort out their names policy - any volunteers? A handful of Scottish stations now have bilingual signage - Inbhir Nis and Caol a' Loch Aillse for sure and maybe a few others - but I don't think the departure screens show any Gaelic.

As Gaazy will have known but others may not, Amwythig is Shrewsbury and Caer is Chester - I'll try and work those others out a bit later.

A bit of Googling reveals "clegr" as one Welsh word for "rock" (about four were shown, but that one was first), so maybe I live in Caerglegr (from what is said above, I reckon one of those mutation thingies is probably called for).

 
Gaazy
90921.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:56 am Reply with quote

Clegr should really be clegyr, as in Clegyr Boia in Pembrokeshire.

The more usual elements for placenames are Carreg or Craig.

Out of curiosity, Suze, what is the name of your town or city?

PS you are right in saying the word would need a mutation, and your Caer+clegr = *Caerglegr is a most excellent example.

 
suze
90939.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:58 am Reply with quote

Thanks Gaazy.

I live in Rochester in Kent, and the received wisdom seems to be that the name of the town (why it is no longer a city has been discussed here before) comes from Rock + Chester.

So if "carreg" or "craig" are more likely forms for a place name, then "Caergarreg" or "Caergraig" I reckon.

 
Stefan Linnemann
90991.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:19 am Reply with quote

The Frisians (one of the few minority-peoples not looking for independence) managed better: full official recognition for their own language, as long as Dutch translations are available as needed.
But if you plan on a solo trip to, for instance, Leeuwarden, best to learn beforehand to look for directions to Ljouwerd.

But on a slightly different track: what would be the most ubiqitous word in the world, and then I mean a word frmo a single origin, like, e.g. papa[/] (good contender, that) or [i]water, which has the same root as ahwa and akva.
I know passport makes a good effort, as it seems to have been adopted and localised into many languages, but at least the Greek have a different word diabatèria {offering at (border-)crossing}.
I suspect it might be a modern word, which started in one place and got adopted everywhere. If there.is any one word every language uses. Any one know any Chinese?

Stefan.

 
Gaazy
90993.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:23 am Reply with quote

You mean a word which is the same in more languages than any other word? Neologisms like Internet are probably the best contenders (though round here we call it Rhyngrwyd).

 
Stefan Linnemann
91000.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:40 am Reply with quote

Gaazy wrote:
You mean a word which is the same in more languages than any other word? Neologisms like Internet are probably the best contenders (though round here we call it Rhyngrwyd).

Yes, like Internet[/], and with ignoring the transformations made to the word to make it locally more palatable or waht else. Like [i]water and akva are the same word, originally. I wondered, if there was any word, either left over or newly hatched, which is in essence the same word everywhere in the world. Prefereably an old one, so you could imagine as hypothetical Eve sending out Adam to get some ahwa.

 
Gaazy
91002.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:48 am Reply with quote

In that case, *ma, the assumed root of 'mother', is your man. Or your woman.

 
suze
91004.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:52 am Reply with quote

Gaazy wrote:
Penbedw, Caerfaddon, Bryste, Caergrawnt, Rhydychen, Caerliwelydd, Caerwysg, Caerloyw, Caerefrog, Caersallog, Caerwrangon, Caergaint, Casgwent or Caerwynt either.


Well I though I had better attack these. My husband was all for Googling them, but I didn't let him until I'd seen what I could do.

So I armed myself with an online Welsh dictionary

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html

and got a list of possible mutations from Wiki, and here's what I came up with:

Penbedw: "Birchhead" (= Birkenhead)
Caerfaddon: "Bathchester" (= Bath)
Bryste: well it's Bristol
Caergrawnt: the dictionary didn't help here, but then I realised it looks a lot like "Grantchester" - and it is used in Welsh to mean Cambridge. Why isn't it something like "Pontgam"? And is there honey still for tea?
Rhydychen: Oxford
Caerliwelydd: The dictionary wasn't much help here either, but when I tried to pronounce it I realised it was rather like the Scottish Gaelic "Cathair Luail" - Carlisle.
Caerwysg: "Uskchester". I couldn't think where that might be until we Googled, but it's Exeter of course.
Caerloyw: now this one confused me - "loyw" could be a mutated form of "lloyw" or "gloyw", but there doesn't appear to be such a word as either. But think of it as "Gloywchester" and it becomes obvious that it's Gloucester.
Caerefrog: "Yorkchester" (= York); note the similarity between "Efrog" and "Ebor".
Caersallog: I didn't get anywhere with this one until we Googled - it's Salisbury, which I guess is "obvious" once you know
Caerwrangon: I still don't know what a "gwrangon" (I guess) is, but this is the Welsh word for Worcester
Caergaint: "Kentchester" - I guessed this to mean Canterbury, and it seems I was right; the first thing thrown up by Google refers to the Archegob of Caergaint, Dr Rowan Williams. Archegob is a rather wonderful word ...
Casgwent: We had to Google this one too - it's Chepstow, which is actually in Wales but seems more often to be known by its English name
Caerwynt: "Windchester" (= Winchester)

But I discover that Manchester is called Manceinion in Welsh and not - as I had confidently predicted - Caerddyn. Think I should leave Welsh to the experts ...

 
Gaazy
91024.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:49 pm Reply with quote

Wow, Suze, you did some hard work there! I would have told you what they all were eventually.

You've worked them out really well from their component parts.

Caergrawnt derives from Cambridge's old name, Grantabridge [modern spelling], from the old name for the river Cam. I don't know why it was given a prefix in W. denoting a fortification, but so many placenames in the language begin with 'Caer' it's probably just a knee-jerk reaction to stick one on.

Gloucester's Welsh name actually predates the English one - it was called Caer Glow, or splendid city, by the Celts.

The W. name for Worcester probably derives from the earliest surviving Old English name for Worcester - Weogornaceaster or Weogernaceaster (A.D. 691) - with latinized versions such as Weogorna civitas (A.D. 691) and castra Weogernensis (A.D. 736-7) also in use at this time.

Manceinion
isn't very similar to the Latin Mamuciam, but is echoed in the E. adjective Mancunian.

'Archegob' would be a great word, but actually it's archesgob, from arch+esgob, esgob (bishop) deriving from L. episcopus.

Your etymological detective work does you credit, Suze!

 
gerontius grumpus
91079.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:49 pm Reply with quote

Caerwynt is almost the same as Caerwent and indeed, they are the same. Both had the Roman name Venta and both were tribal capitals.
Perhaps we could try making English versions of Welsh placenames and claim there is a Winchester in Gwent (Wintshire).

 
Gaazy
91087.  Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:38 pm Reply with quote

Caernarfon would then become Arvonchester, Cardiff Taffchester and Swansea something like Tawemouth or Towymouth, depending on how the name of the river would be rendered in English.

Bangor means 'place encircled by hurdles', which is essentially what the Irish word for Dublin, Baile Átha Cliath, means. It would be tempting to say, therefore, that I often pop down to Dublin to shop, but the actual name Dublin, Dubh Linn, would be translated into English as Blackpool.

Confused? You will be.

 
Hans Mof
91938.  Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:53 am Reply with quote

Stefan Linnemann wrote:
I wondered, if there was any word, either left over or newly hatched, which is in essence the same word everywhere in the world.


Taxi

Translations

 
suze
91954.  Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:27 am Reply with quote

Funnily enough, myself and mckeonj were deliberating on this matter only a few days ago.

Certainly, a huge number of languages have a word for "taxi" which is recognisably the same as the English one. Even Finnish now seems to favour "taksi" over the original "vuokra-auto" (hire car).

Many languages have a word for "police" which is recognisably the same too - polizei, polis, poliisi, policja, and so on.

A slightly different issue is the matter of which English words or phrases are understood the most around the world. There was some Japanese research on this a few years back, and the three most recognizable were Coca Cola, Disney and Microsoft.

The next two were not corporate names you will be glad to hear. You may be less glad to know that they were "OK" and (look away now if you are of a sensitive nature) "fuck off".

Advertising and American movies have a lot to answer for ...

 
Stefan Linnemann
92045.  Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:06 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:


The next two were not corporate names you will be glad to hear. You may be less glad to know that they were "OK" and (look away now if you are of a sensitive nature) "fuck off".

Advertising and American movies have a lot to answer for ...


Yes, and they'd best not come near me, because I get really Spanish Inquisitive on them if they give me opportunity.

Back to ubiquitous words, I briefly considered "sex", but she didn't want to. However, "bible" (from the greek word: "biblio", meaning book) must be scarily omnipresent. We must hope, that some otherwise religious people managed to undermine the missionary's position fiercefully enough to withstand its inclusion in their language.

 

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