| suze
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| 90406. Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:37 pm |
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Menhir
English took the word from French, which took it from Breton - it's one of very few Breton words used in French. What is unclear is where it all began - Cornish and Welsh both have a similar word, and which had it first is not really known.
The OED does have a few citations for the use of menhir in English, but it certainly wasn't a word that many people knew until Asterix came along. |
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| Gaazy
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| 90413. Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:49 pm |
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We don't have a word like menhir - if it existed it would be two words - maen hir (long stone), which, if conflated into one would reverse the order - for reasons too anoraky to explain here - to form hirfaen.
The same stands for claymore, which means 'big sword' in Gaelic (claidheamh mòr), and which, in Welsh, would be cledd mawr, but if forced into one word would be mawrgledd.
You know, when you speak a language naturally, it seems so inordinately complex when you try to explain it to others (e.g. the change of c into g and m into f in the examples above are instances of mutation or lenition, which come without thinking into native speech, but which can take many years for learners to get right). |
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| suze
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| 90437. Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:58 pm |
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Thanks for that info Gaazy - the OED needs to be told! (In fairness, on reading it again they do give the Welsh correlate as two words - maen hir, but they certainly allege that it exists.)
All languages have their individual fiddly bits which come naturally to a native speaker but are difficult for outsiders. To name but a few, the mutation system in Welsh, the huge number of reflexive verbs in Portuguese, the eighteen cases in Hungarian, the eleven genders in Navajo, the absence of adjectives in Chinese, and so on.
English is not exempt. Our spelling / pronunciation issues might be thought the biggest hurdle for those who learn the language, but how would you feel if you started out to learn a language having first been told that it has 261 irregular verbs? |
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| gerontius grumpus
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| 90532. Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:22 pm |
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| Claidheamh, Cledd and -gledd look as if they are related to the word gladius. |
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| Lumpo31
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| 90551. Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:28 am |
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| suze wrote: | | Lumpo31 wrote: | | The Isle of Sheppey?! What variation of Gaelic did they speak? Estuary? |
Estuary Gaelic - the mind boggles!
In fact, the people of Sheppey spoke a language that I suspect of being Frisian, probably until the mid 18th century. I spoke on this matter at post 76442.
Not a Celtic language, but certainly a language that isn't English. |
Ooh, I missed that one. Now, that's QI!
Michael Crawford's from Sheppey - I bet he doesn't speak Frisian, or any variation...
Lisa |
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| Gaazy
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| 90561. Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:52 am |
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| gerontius grumpus wrote: | | Claidheamh, Cledd and -gledd look as if they are related to the word gladius. |
Bang on, GG - The Oxford Latin Dictionary (Oxford: C.P., 1994 Reprint) derives 'gladius' from the Celtic.
Cf. OIr claidb, Welsh cledd[yf], Fr. glaive.
I.e. the Celtic words were there before the Latin. |
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| samivel
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| 90565. Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:43 am |
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| Gaazy wrote: | | for reasons too anoraky to explain here |
Blimey! Where would they be explained, then? |
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| swot
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| 90605. Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:24 am |
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www.anorak.com
Actually I'd like to know the anoraky reasons. :) |
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| tetsabb
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| 90616. Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:16 pm |
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Suze wrote | Quote: | | the absence of adjectives in Chinese, and so on. |
That is mind-boggling! How does that work? Is it "The Wall of China that towers over all others"? How does one say that it is a beautiful day in Chinese/Mandarin? And how does one tell a Chinese waiter that the chicken is rubbery? If it is all too anoraky for a post, feel free to PM me.
Suze wrote
| Quote: | | How would you feel if you started out to learn a language having first been told that it has 261 irregular verbs? |
I would feel like going out and buying lots of All Bran for it... |
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| suze
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| 90683. Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:57 am |
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| Tetsabb, it's not at all anoraky and the answer is actually quite simple - one uses a verb. Chinese has verbs meaning things like "to be beautiful", "to be red" and so on and these take the place of adjectives. |
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| Jenny
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| 90857. Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:02 pm |
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| So would you in effect be saying 'it reds' instead of 'it is red'? |
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| Gaazy
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| 90869. Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:21 am |
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| samivel wrote: | | Gaazy wrote: | | for reasons too anoraky to explain here |
Blimey! Where would they be explained, then? |
Well, in grammar books obviously, and in the preface to the Welsh Academy Dictionary, but, trust me, you do not want to know the various circumstances in which initial-consonant lenition happens in Welsh.
But the one illustrated in my post was Compound Words Made of Adjectives Preceding Nouns.
There. |
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| Flash
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| 90881. Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:31 am |
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I was in North Wales last week, and they have bilingual road signs there, English on top and Welsh underneath. The one to Flint says:
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| Gaazy
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| 90886. Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:56 am |
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| Flash wrote: | I was in North Wales last week, and they have bilingual road signs there, English on top and Welsh underneath. The one to Flint says:
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And it's wrong.
The Welsh name for Flint is Y Fflint.
British Rail's policy, by the way, is to use the Welsh name only if the names in the two languages are similar, so the only name on the town's station platforms has the double f, which usually provokes snorts from passengers meeting it for the first time.
Indeed, the use of the double letter causes almost inexplicable hilarity, disbelief or even indignation on the part of some people whose first or only language is English, and it seems to me strange that such a reaction should come from speakers of a language not renowned for its phonetic regularity.
'ff' is quite simply the counterpart of the English 'f', and 'f' corresponds to the English 'v'.
It might be borne in mind that, in German, the correspondence is 'v' to 'f' and 'w' to 'v' - wieviel? ("how much?") being pronounced as if it were vee feel in English, but nobody seems to complain too much - though, to and English speaker, the correct pronunciations of the German words for 'father' and 'journey' have snigger value for a different reason
And returning to the phonetics of English, what about the pronunciation of the 'f' in the English word 'of', then? |
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| suze
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| 90891. Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:22 am |
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| Gaazy wrote: | | British Rail's policy, by the way, is to use the Welsh name only if the names in the two languages are similar, so the only name on the town's station platforms has the double f, which usually provokes snorts from passengers meeting it for the first time. |
Both names are used if they are any less similar than that though - e.g. Bae Colwyn is joined by Colwyn Bay on the signage there.
A couple years ago, we travelled by train when we went to visit relatives of Andy's in Oswestry and Llandudno. And as I recall, there are at least two stations in England with "official" Welsh names as well - Amwythig and Caer. (I won't count Gobowen, which is in England by a couple miles but the name of the village is Welsh [I think].) Since trains from North Wales certainly go there, do they announce a train as terminating at "Birmingham Heol Newydd"? |
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