View previous topic | View next topic

Introduction of gay marriage in Great Britain

Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

cornixt
1289653.  Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 pm Reply with quote

When I got married (not in a church and years before same-sex civil unions appeared), the word "marriage" barely appeared anywhere in any of the documents, save for the marriage certificate itself. It was called a civil union and I had a civil ceremony. I don't know if the county were just trying to save money by not having to reprint their stuff in case it came up, but it made the fuss over not using the word for gays even sillier when it arose.

 
dr.bob
1289894.  Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:23 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
In fact, I discover that really quite a lot of European countries require a civil ceremony, whether or not there is also a religious ceremony.


I wonder if any of them insist, as they do in this country, that a civil ceremony "must be entirely secular with no religious language, music or rituals."

Surely you could argue that getting married in and of itself is a religious ritual. Also, would a civil service be voided if someone sneezes and someone else says "bless you" ;-)

 
suze
1289896.  Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:09 am Reply with quote

In France, they do indeed have similar rules. French civil weddings are performed by minor civil servants who don't even pretend to be enthusiastic or interested, and are done in ten minutes. In some towns which don't have a register office, the civil wedding takes place at the police station, and is conducted by the equivalent of the Custody Sergeant.

If the couple are also having a religious ceremony, it's usually on the same day and the wedding party go straight from one to the other.


All rather different in Poland, though. A civil marriage ceremony in Poland will include Catholic prayers unless you ask for them to be omitted. In the big cities they're fine with that request - but then in the big cities, cohabitation is by now socially acceptable and so young couples are less likely to get married.

In rural areas the request might be considered strange, and you might find the registrar including the prayers anyway. Then again, Poles in rural areas tend to get married in church with a two day piss-up involving the entire village afterwards.

 
GuyBarry
1289995.  Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:18 am Reply with quote

Let's not forget that before the Marriage Act 1994 was passed, marriages could only be solemnized in churches and register offices, rather than in any approved premises as now. And who do we have to thank for the introduction of that revolutionary piece of legislation? A Tory who was elected to Parliament in 1992, only to be swept out in the Blair landslide of 1997.

So let's hear it for that great reformer Gyles Brandreth!

 
dr.bob
1290266.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:49 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
French civil weddings are performed by minor civil servants who don't even pretend to be enthusiastic or interested, and are done in ten minutes.


If all they're doing is saying "I do" (or "je fais") and signing a contract, then they might as well do what we do here and fold that into the religious ceremony. Although I guess, if they did that, the French civil service would go on strike to protect the jobs of all those minor civil servants who now don't get paid to look unenthusiastic in front of a happy couple :)

 
AlmondFacialBar
1290292.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:32 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
In France, they do indeed have similar rules. French civil weddings are performed by minor civil servants who don't even pretend to be enthusiastic or interested, and are done in ten minutes. In some towns which don't have a register office, the civil wedding takes place at the police station, and is conducted by the equivalent of the Custody Sergeant.

If the couple are also having a religious ceremony, it's usually on the same day and the wedding party go straight from one to the other.


In Germany marriage is an entirely civil matter that has to be conducted by a registrar before any sort of religious ceremony, if one is wanted. The civil marriage usually takes place during regular civil service office hours, and if there's a religious ceremony afterwards it's conducted the following weekend before the reception.

As for lack of enthusiasm on the side of the civil servant in question, my parents' prevailing memory of their wedding is that the registrar gave the distinct impression of being about to say: "Prisoner of the bar, rise and face the jury!"

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
suze
1290310.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:42 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
If all they're doing is saying "I do" (or "je fais") and signing a contract, then they might as well do what we do here and fold that into the religious ceremony.


The way the question is framed in France, I think the proper response is je le veux ("I want it"). Just oui would make perfect sense as surely as "yes" would here, but it's not quite the done thing.


dr.bob wrote:
Although I guess, if they did that, the French civil service would go on strike to protect the jobs of all those minor civil servants who now don't get paid to look unenthusiastic in front of a happy couple :)


More importantly, they'd go on strike to protect the constitution. Laïcité (secularism) has been a major tenet of French policy since the establishment of the Third Republic in 1870, and is enshrined in the constitution*.

There is no RE in state sector schools, and the political and religious sectors are strongly discouraged from commenting on the activities of the other. For the church to be involved in the civil registration of marriages would be unthinkable, especially since France probably has more actually practising Muslims than it does actually practising Christians†.


* Except in Alsace, where the Roman Catholic church retains some historical privileges. Alsace was in Germany when France legislated for the absolute separation of church and state in 1905, and since it became part of France no one has quite dared to abolish those privileges. A Communist local government tried to in the 1920s, but that led to riots and subsequent local governments have steered well clear.

† No one knows for sure, because French censuses are forbidden to ask any questions about religion. But the received wisdom is that only about 5% attend Mass on a regular basis (mostly caricature "little old ladies"), while at least as many regularly attend Friday prayers.

 
tetsabb
1290311.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:45 am Reply with quote

suze wrote
Quote:
"little old ladies


50 or over. I presume.
😉

 
GuyBarry
1290318.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:00 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:

The way the question is framed in France, I think the proper response is je le veux ("I want it").


Clearly a bit more down-to-earth than over here!

 
suze
1290321.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:01 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
50 or over. I presume.


That's right.

As from Friday, the definition of "old" will be changed to 51 or over.

When the definition of "little" will be changed in such a way as to include me, who can say.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1290322.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:08 pm Reply with quote

The Latin senex is said to have applied from the age of 45. I guess we'll just have to deal with it...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
suze
1290371.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:40 pm Reply with quote

But life expectancy at birth in Classical Rome was about 35 years. Accordingly, a person became a senex upon reaching 129% of life expectancy at birth.

Life expectancy at birth for a person born in Canada in 1968 was 72 years. Therefore, I won't be "old" until I am 93. Since I hardly expect to reach that age, it would seem that I am destined to be a teenager forever!

 
AlmondFacialBar
1290373.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:02 pm Reply with quote

Works for me... My Latin teacher, who must have been in his early fifties back then, insisted there was a typo in our textbook and it should actually say 55, and I haven't the slightest doubt that he kept correcting the textbook further year after year until he retired. Hence I think he would approve of your approach.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
'yorz
1290376.  Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:15 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
suze wrote
Quote:
"little old ladies


50 or over. I presume.
😉


Oi! 'Little old ladies' to me are bent-over, rheumatic, black-clad, white-haired, wart-nosed, old biddies of 80+.

 
dr.bob
1290492.  Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:13 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
dr.bob wrote:
If all they're doing is saying "I do" (or "je fais") and signing a contract, then they might as well do what we do here and fold that into the religious ceremony.


The way the question is framed in France, I think the proper response is je le veux ("I want it"). Just oui would make perfect sense as surely as "yes" would here, but it's not quite the done thing.


After posting my original point, I had a vague memory of saying "I will" rather than "I do" at my wedding. I'm not sure why, but I think it might have been some kind of Catholic vs Anglican thing.

I also had a vague memory that saying "I do/will" was legally required to make the marriage legal, so I did a bit of digging. It seems I wasn't quite correct. According to an english council website I found, there are actually two phrases that must legally be spoken during the wedding ceremony. Without them it seems that the marriage would be null and void.

The first phrase are the Declaratory Words which take the form "I do solemnly declare that I know not of any lawful impediment why I [name] may not be joined in matrimony to [name]." This then needs to be followed by the Contracting Words, which take the form "I call upon these persons here present, to witness that I [name] do take thee [name] to be my lawful wedded wife / husband."

This pdf file from Edinburgh states that, north of the border, there's an additional bit of business to cover at the start of the ceremony: namely the "Identification" where the person conducting the ceremony needs to say the following:

Quote:
Before I proceed with this civil marriage ceremony the law requires that I must ask both the parties to the marriage to formally identify themselves in my presence and in the presence of their witnesses.

Therefore, ........... can you now confirm that your name is.....................
Therefore, ........... can you now confirm that your name is.....................


This is for a civil ceremony but, since it's a legal requirement, I would imagine the same rules apply for a religious ceremony.

The other odd thing in Scotland is the amount of paperwork involved. When I got married I rocked up at a church, signed a form, and buggered off on honeymoon. Apparently in Scotland you need to fill in the Marriage Notice Form, also known as the M10 (ahh, how romantic), no more than three months and no later than 29 days before your wedding date. This needs to be submitted along with both of your birth certificates (no photocopies) and, if either of you has been previously married, the registrar will also need to see your divorce, annulment or death certificate to prove you’re free to marry again.

During the actual ceremony, you'll sign the "Marriage Schedule". In a civil wedding, this is provided by the registrar. However, for a religious wedding, it's your responsibility to collect it from the register office during the week before the wedding. You then have to hand this Schedule in to the register office within three days of the wedding, which is handy if you're about to vanish on honeymoon :-S

Going back to the "I do/will" question, the closest I can find to it now is the Declaratory Words which can also take the form of the person conducting the ceremony asking the person about to be married "Are you ......... free lawfully to marry ........?” at which point they can reply "I am".

 

Page 2 of 3
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group