View previous topic | View next topic

Catalan referendum

Page 1 of 21
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 19, 20, 21  Next

GuyBarry
1252016.  Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:01 pm Reply with quote

Never mind Brexit, what about "Spexit"? The criteria for countries wishing to join the EU include "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities".

European Commission wrote:
https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership_en


Since Spain has clearly violated the membership criteria by trying to stop people from voting, shouldn't they be kicked out?

 
Efros
1252018.  Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:11 pm Reply with quote

Seems Franco's Spain is just hiding underneath the surface.

 
Alexander Howard
1252078.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:08 am Reply with quote

Nah - it was an illegal plebiscite, an exercise outside the powers of the regional government and jumped on by court order. The methods were unfortunate though: arresting election officials for illegal practices would be fair enough, or just sneaking in the back and confiscating the ballot boxes. Whacking civilians was excessive.

It will be interesting to see what is uncovered when the accounts of the regional government are audited. That could produce some severe political embarrassment. Although possibly only as much as would be uncovered by auditing the national government's own.

 
GuyBarry
1252085.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:26 am Reply with quote

Well I was absolutely shocked. It's the sort of thing I'd have expected to see in somewhere like Zimbabwe, not in one of our EU partners. The referendum may have been unconstitutional but that was no reason to try to stop it from going ahead. All that the national government will have achieved by its actions is to increase support for independence.

Do they think we'll ever negotiate with them over Gibraltar after this?

 
tetsabb
1252091.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:39 am Reply with quote

Should we call the campaign for independence 'Catflap'?

 
PDR
1252149.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:21 am Reply with quote

There have been times when we wished to prohibit a referendum - exaples being the one on Crimea seperating from Ukraine.

You need to look at the details to understand what the objection is - and I freely admit I haven't done that in this case.

PDR

 
barbados
1252158.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:52 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
There have been times when we wished to prohibit a referendum - exaples being the one on Crimea seperating from Ukraine.



Did that not happen then?

 
Alexander Howard
1252162.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:05 am Reply with quote

The Crimean referendum did happen, but the universal reaction in the west was to dismiss it as "the illegal referendum" (which it was in Ukrainian law, as the Catalan one was in Spanish law). I think the point is to beware of double standards.

The Crimean referendum was rejected by the West (as if we have any special moral authority) as it was held to legitimise the Russian occupation of the Crimea. However the result was overwhelmingly in favour of Russia. Then we wind back and see that while "western opinion" rejected the Crimean referendum for illegality, it did not reject the overthrow of the Ukrainian government earlier by protestors in Kiev, which was equally illegal.

Now in Spain there is another illegal referendum, this one started not by an occupying army but by the local government albeit beyond its powers. Catalonian opinion was (at least before this week) narrowly against separatism, while in the Crimea it was overwhelmingly for separation and union with Mother Russia. So which one is more (il)legitimate? It is not a subject for hasty Tweets.

 
PDR
1252175.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:38 am Reply with quote

Thanks for adding the context which I was trying (but failing) to remember Alexander - yes, that was exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about.

But I stress - I haven't looked into unough of the detail to form a meaningful view on the merits of each side in this particular case.

PDR

 
GuyBarry
1252181.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:46 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
There have been times when we wished to prohibit a referendum - exaples being the one on Crimea seperating from Ukraine.


"We" being who? If you're a democrat, the only people whose opinion should matter are the ones actually taking part in the vote. I certainly didn't try to stop anyone from voting in the Crimean referendum.

Quote:
You need to look at the details to understand what the objection is - and I freely admit I haven't done that in this case.


It doesn't actually matter what the precise legal objection is. If you claim to respect democracy and the rule of law, then you don't send armed police officers to prevent civilians from voting.

Why hasn't every single EU nation condemned Spain's action? They've broken the rules of the club, and I don't see why they should remain members.

 
PDR
1252209.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:59 am Reply with quote

Possibly because they might see it differently to you, Guy.

PDR

 
GuyBarry
1252217.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:19 am Reply with quote

Well apparently they do. That means that 27 states, including the UK, think it's OK for governments to beat up their own people because they don't agree with them politically.

I'm scared now. If this is really the sort of political culture that the EU wants to encourage, then I am really, really, really glad we're leaving.

EDIT: Just to labour the point, those people being beaten up were European citizens. The EU has a responsibility towards them.

EDIT [2]: The BBC is reporting that the Slovenian and Belgian prime ministers have condemned the violence. Good for them.

 
PDR
1252252.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:44 am Reply with quote

Maybe they were. But after a brief (and by no means exhaustive) search I find that the methods chosen to select the electorate and run the referendum were illegal in Spain, and were by no means "exemplar" in ensuring a fair election with objective anti-fraud measures.

Of course the Brexit Elite and its supplicants/apologists will take any opportunity to treat anything at all as a stick to beat the EU with, so it's no surprise to see the usual suspects attacking them again.

Par for the course.

PDR

 
Alexander Howard
1252254.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:49 am Reply with quote

Back in the day, minding my own business in Belfast, a youth, hearing my accent, suddenly pulled his T-shirt off (not something I am used to, or not from men anyway) to show that the whole upper right part of his chest was one big, ugly bruise. He had been hit by a plastic bullet, and the injury was a horror.

He wanted to me be sympathetic to his injury, to have revulsion for the forces that did this too him. Actually I thought "You were rioting: you're a thug." Diplomatically I said nothing beyond conversational pleasantries until I could walk away.

I have not seen what the crowds were doing in Barcelona. Were they attacking the police barring the polling stations, or resisting being removed? I suspect that the police over-reacted and their actions were unnecessary for the purpose, but I am not about to judge another nation defending its own integrity.

 
Alfred E Neuman
1252256.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:50 am Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
That means that 27 states, including the UK, think it's OK for governments to beat up their own people because they don't agree with them politically.

I'm scared now. If this is really the sort of political culture that the EU wants to encourage, then I am really, really, really glad we're leaving.


Maybe you’re leaving but you’re taking it with you...

 

Page 1 of 21
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 19, 20, 21  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group