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Iraq

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monzac
1252067.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:36 am Reply with quote

Leith wrote:
My own name doesn't really change much when rendered in French, but when talking to people here about where I'm from, I'm quite happy to use 'Londres' and 'Edimbourg'. If anything, it would seem rather rude to insist on their native pronunciations.


David Sedaris on dealing with pronunciation when living in France :)

 
AlmondFacialBar
1252068.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:56 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Today I learned that the name China is Sanskrit.


That said, the term Qin must have had a meaning beyond the Imperial dynasty and directly referring to statehood, because they referred to Rome as Da Qin, i.e. Great China.

It was complicated...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
ali
1252072.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:40 am Reply with quote

Alfred E Neuman wrote:
So why do we call Deutschland Germany then? Or any other country where it's name in English is not the same as its actual name? Is that a lack of cultural awareness?


It's not just Deutschland; there are quite a few, e.g. Shqipëri, Magyarország, Suomi, al-Maġrib, Chosŏn, Hanguk and Maṣr.

 
GuyBarry
1252095.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:47 am Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:
@'yorz: Similarly, I don't understand your comment that the Farsi spelling is "Irak", since Farsi uses the Persian alphabet (a version of the Arabic alphabet).


I didn't 'comment' - I quoted from a site that gave that version. Obviously, you will have to enter 'Iraq' yourself as copying the link didn't carry on the results - it became blank again. I would have guessed Iraq myself, but not being an expert I thought giving the link to that Farsi-dictionary would be helpful.


I couldn't understand how that site worked, but I used Google Translate and got عراق, as Suze confirmed. I don't understand how you managed to get a Farsi translation written in Roman script.

 
GuyBarry
1252102.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:54 am Reply with quote

ali wrote:
Alfred E Neuman wrote:
So why do we call Deutschland Germany then? Or any other country where it's name in English is not the same as its actual name? Is that a lack of cultural awareness?


It's not just Deutschland; there are quite a few, e.g. Shqipëri, Magyarország, Suomi, al-Maġrib, Chosŏn, Hanguk and Maṣr.


Probably the case for the majority of non-English-speaking countries, I'd have thought. Here's a list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_and_their_capitals_in_native_languages

 
AlmondFacialBar
1252106.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:03 am Reply with quote

Thing is - where do you want to start with these things and where do you want to stop?

Should we call New Zealand Aotearoa and the American countries their native names? If so, their native names in which of the hundreds of languages historically spoken there?

Greece calls itself Ελλάδα. Should we call it that? The official name of the country where I live is Éire, but for various reasons to do with political expediency most of us prefer not to call it that in everyday life.

Egypt, Hungary, Finland etc. are ancient names, and at least with Egypt we do have the issue what we should call it instead. Maṣr represents a tiny slice of that ancient country's history and does not represent the Coptic minority, who call it Kimi. That name historically makes more sense as its etymology goes back to the country's original name Kemet, but at the same time doesn't represent much of its population. By saying Maṣr, however, we are ignoring the existence of the Copts altogether, which is definitely not a good idea. Hence, let's stick with Egypt as the only name that describes the country as it is.

Finally (I think) there is the simple matter of pronounciability. I'd make a complete tit of myself were I to refer to Hungary as Magyarország in a spoken conversation, and the same applies for the average Hungarian person were they to say Deutschland instead of Németország. Completely mangling a country's name in its own language strikes me a lot less respectful than proncouncing it correctly by its exonym.

Anyone?

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
GuyBarry
1252113.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:13 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Completely mangling a country's name in its own language strikes me a lot less respectful than proncouncing it correctly by its exonym.


Agreed. I hear "Myanmar" pronounced in various different ways, and I'm not sure which is correct (the BBC says "myan-MAR", with two syllables, but I've heard it with three, and with varying stress). No one ever had a problem with "Burma".

 
ali
1252117.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:25 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Thing is - where do you want to start with these things and where do you want to stop?

-stuff-

Completely mangling a country's name in its own language strikes me a lot less respectful than proncouncing it correctly by its exonym.

Anyone?

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


Oh, I agree, I was only pointing out that there are a fair few countries whose local name does not relate to the English name at all.
OTOH, re. mangling, I remember a Polish girl I used to work with (who gave her name as 'Violet' with English pronunciation) who was pleased and surprised when I referred to her country's capital as [vɑɾsʌv] (half-way through the word I realised that I didn't actually know the correct Polish name, so just cut it short) :/

 
Alfred E Neuman
1252119.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:46 am Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Completely mangling a country's name in its own language strikes me a lot less respectful than proncouncing it correctly by its exonym.


Agreed. I hear "Myanmar" pronounced in various different ways, and I'm not sure which is correct (the BBC says "myan-MAR", with two syllables, but I've heard it with three, and with varying stress). No one ever had a problem with "Burma".


There are cases where staying with the old name could cause offense. I’d not recommend referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia for example.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1252123.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:52 am Reply with quote

Well yes, definitely. But then technically speaking Zimbabwe is the old name, no? Anyway, this issue strikes me as less about old vs. no names as about what people call themselves and what others call them. The German, say, for Zimbabwe is Simbabwe, not Rhodesien. I remember that my World-
and Environmental Studies textbook in fifth grade still referred to Harare as Salisbury because that was literally months after the name change, but our teacher went to great lengths to explain that it was no longer called that name and why.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Alfred E Neuman
1252155.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:47 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Well yes, definitely. But then technically speaking Zimbabwe is the old name, no?


Not really. It didn’t exist as a country before the Brits came along. There were at least two nations living in the area at the time, the Ndebele and the Shona. They didn't live as a single entity and any peace between them was fragile.

The Kingdom of Zimbabwe ceased to exist 300 or 400 years ago. Before that the Kingdom of Mapungubwe was in roughly the same area. After that was the Kingdom of Mutapa.

In modern times, the country was first called Zimbabwe in 1960, so it’s not the case that it was traditionally called Zimbabwe before Cecil John Rhodes arrived on the scene, it just didn’t exist before that.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1252179.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:42 am Reply with quote

Which brings us back to the general issue of colonisation...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Alfred E Neuman
1252184.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:53 am Reply with quote

I didn’t just accidentally go back on topic did I? I’m going to destroy my reputation at this rate...

 
GuyBarry
1252186.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:01 am Reply with quote

Not unless Zimbabwe used to be called "Iraq" :-)

 
AlmondFacialBar
1252187.  Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:09 am Reply with quote

By back I meant my post about what we should call all those political entities that only exist thanks to colonisation, like the countries of the Americas.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 

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