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Sledging (in cricket, not on snow)

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Alfred E Neuman
1276887.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:25 am Reply with quote

I was away last weekend and didn't follow the on and off field goings on in the first test between South Africa and Australia on Sunday, particularly the fracas between Warner and de Kock. As I understand it, Warner was having a go at de Kock about being named after a cock, and while they were on their way back to the dressing rooms, de Kock chirped back, and Warner had to be restrained by his team mates.

I know I'm biased, but seriously, an Aussie whining about someone sledging him? If you're going to dish it out, then take it on the chin when it comes back at you, as it will. The Aussies are upset that de Kock 'crossed the line', although the point has been raised that there is no defined line, and even if there was, who appointed the Aussies to be the arbiters of such alledged line crossing?

I've always loved cricket, even though I am really, really shit at it, and have never played at any competitive level, and part of what I love is a well crafted sledge, or to be more accurate, a well crafted reply to a sledge. So even if I wasn't biased, I reckon I'd still be siding with de Kock on this.

1276894.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:43 pm Reply with quote

Which would you find worse? Being told that your name was similar to a vulgar word for the penis, or being reminded that Sonny Bill Williams once shagged your wife.

That he did is not disputed. David Warner's wife is a woman named Candice Falzon, who was a professional triathlete as a young woman and had something of a reputation for taking to assorted sportsmen's beds.

Not that Sonny Bill ever got as far as the bedroom, since he and Candice did the deed in the lavatories at a Sydney bar. There are photographs. Mr Williams converted to Islam a year later, so presumably doesn't do that sort of thing any more. But Mr Warner might find it tricky to convince the world that his wife is not a bit of a slapper.

Husband tells me that he very rarely sledged opponents on the cricket field. In his middle-aged comeback, he only did it to opponents who were his own age and he'd known for 20+ years. He considered that he was "allowed" to tell such people that they weren't really much good and ought to pack it in (or words to that effect), because it was entirely true and applied equally to himself. But sledging the kids (ie anyone under 30, probably) was not really on.

On the other hand, his disciplinary record for speaking out of turn to umpires is not unblemished, and he admits that he was a bit lucky not to get a one week's suspension for this last season.

1276895.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:49 pm Reply with quote

Perhaps Mr Warner should have thought of that before making his comment.
I'm with afl on this one though, what is good for the goose is most certainly good for the gander, and if you are going to sledge me - expect it back with icing and a cherry on the top.

1276906.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:37 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
...he and Candice did the deed in the lavatories at a Sydney bar. There are photographs. Mr Williams converted to Islam a year later, so presumably doesn't do that sort of thing any more.

I take it you mean hanging around in bars, not about having sex with women :)

Having said that, I know plenty of people who consider themselves good Muslims, but will still go to a bar and have a drink because they don't believes it defines their faith, but admittedly their numbers have reduced somewhat in recent years, and as they were usually from an Arab or Persian ethnicity, they wouldn't usually be converts :)

As for sledging, when I played for my school I remember my sport teacher telling us that he would only tolerate sledging as long as it wasn't personal, and I've grown to believe that's a good rule to have.

BTW, in the 80s we didn't call it sledging, it was something else, but I can't remember what.

1276930.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:56 pm Reply with quote

Slagging off? FWIW, before today I'd never heard the term 'sledging' used in any other context than to describe the action of a vehicle designed to glide downhill over snow.

1276932.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:53 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
I know plenty of people who consider themselves good Muslims, but will still go to a bar and have a drink .

I don't know how "good" they consider themselves, or indeed what faith (if any) they practice, but if you go into my local pub*, you will find the clientele almost entirely of South Asian heritage.

*The Red House, which tets may remember as our meeting place prior to Bletchley Park.

1276935.  Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:23 pm Reply with quote

CB27 wrote:
I take it you mean hanging around in bars, not about having sex with women :)

If the women are his wives, then as a good Muslim he is permitted to have sex with them. But having sex with a celebrity groupie in a public lavatory when both you and the woman are in relationships with other people is possibly not completely in accordance with the teachings of Islam!

CB27 wrote:
BTW, in the 80s we didn't call it sledging, it was something else, but I can't remember what.

The name "sledging" is largely restricted to cricket. Other sports don't lend themselves to it in quite the same way, since in eg football you're too busy running around to insult your opponents in a sustained way, and in eg tennis you're not usually close enough to your opponent for her to hear you and the umpire not. (That said, mouthy Australian tennisist Nick Kyrgios admits that he occasionally does it, and uses this term when talking about it.)

The activity itself is as old as the game of cricket. W G Grace - who was by most accounts a fairly unpleasant man, and took pretending to be an amateur to levels of incredulity unheard of before or since - was notorious for it, although he called it "chaffing". The name "sledging" seems to have originated in Australia in the 60s, although there are several versions of precisely when and why this term was adopted.

1277237.  Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:46 am Reply with quote

I see that SA player Kagiso Rabada has been suspended for contact with the Australian captain Stephen Smith.
I do agree that Australians complaining of sledging is a bit rich.
I was going to make a flippant comment about this can only be expected when the game was taken up by others than English gentlemen, but suze's comments about Dr Grace and the Good Husband rather blow that out of the water. (Unless we are to infer that they were/are not gentlemen).
I guess that there is a difference between spur of the moment outbursts, such as Mr Rabada is prone to, such as telling Ben Stokes to fuck off when he took his wicket last summer, and the pre-prepared slagging of a battist from the slips, such as the famous one where someone asked Shane Warne why he was so fat -- "Every time I shag your wife, she gives me a piece of cake"

As for other sports, I would dispute the remark about footballists -- was not John Terry suspended at one point for hurling racist abuse at an opponent?
Watching the Rugby over the weekend made me quite sure that during pauses in play such as getting ready for a scrum or lineout the conversation is not limited to discussions of the weather or the supper menu at the hotel.
I was highly amused at one point when Signore Parisse if Italy, who plays in France, was talking to M. Garçes, the French referee, in English.

We humans can be very competitive, and we love to communicate, so I imagine that wheelchair curling competitors in Pyongcheang are not above expressing the hope that their opponents suffer a puncture or worse as they pass each other

1277253.  Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:39 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
suze's comments about Dr Grace and the Good Husband rather blow that out of the water. (Unless we are to infer that they were/are not gentlemen).

W G Grace's father was also a doctor, and was very keen that his son should follow the same profession. The family were Methodists, for which reason the senior Dr Grace forbade his son to study medicine at Oxford or Cambridge (too C of E for his liking). In a thing which wouldn't happen today, both those universities did offer him inducements to go study there, presumably because they wanted him on the cricket team. In fact he went to Bristol, and didn't qualify as a doctor until he was 31 because he was far too busy playing cricket.

His family background made it unthinkable that he play other as an amateur, but he made far more money out of it than any professional of his day.

You might imagine the rich and famous of Bristol being keen to have him as their doctor, but he wasn't interested. He was a Public Vaccinator (state funded) and was Medical Officer Attending at the Barton Regis Union (ie the workhouse, again state funded), and was also Surgeon to the Pennywell Road Colliery in Bristol (a sinecure, but paid for by the owner rather than the miners).

His private practice was largely among the poor of his part of Bristol, and it said that he often "forgot" to send out bills to patients who would struggle to pay them. That's not because he was a revolutionary socialist, but because he didn't really need their shillings and half crowns; his "amateur" cricketing paid the bills quite comfortably.

As for the good husband, he is a member of the MCC. How that reflects on his gentlemanliness is for others to decide.

1277326.  Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:38 am Reply with quote

Sometimes rugby players give a bit to the ref

1277335.  Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:25 am Reply with quote

As for the Good Husband, thinking about it, he had aspirations to be a professional, did hr not? This would have made him a Player, not a Gentleman,,presumably.

1277399.  Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:20 pm Reply with quote

He'd love to tell you that he had serious aspirations to professional cricket, but in truth he'd be stretching a point quite a long way.

He played for Hertfordshire in age group sides while he was at school, which at that time was quite difficult to do if you went to state school as he did. He was also selected for spin bowling coaching at Lord's, where he trained with a young and loud Philip Tufnell. However, he tends to think that he was a "token" state schoolboy for the sake of appearances, in a cohort that wasn't over stocked with decent spin bowlers. Tufnell obviously stood out among that crowd, but Andy says that there were two or three others who were better than he was, and who went to the right schools. (Other decent young players were brought along to bat against the budding spinners, and one of the people who did that was a mouthy 14 year old of mixed ethnicity. His name was Mark Ramprakash.)

Based on knowing two or three of the people who were, he reckons he'd probably have been a Crusader (a 2nd XI Blue) had he gone to Cambridge. The spinner in the full Blues team in his year was a young fellow called Michael Atherton, and while that fellow wasn't a great bowler, Andy is willing to concede that Mr Atherton was a better batsman than he!

In any case Andy didn't get into Cambridge, and while he did captain his university's 1st XI, it wasn't a university where cricket had an especially high profile at that time. After university he only played at club level.

1277402.  Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:32 pm Reply with quote

I may be mistaken, but something is whispering in the back of my mind that Mr Atherton is currently sitting on a first class hat trick.

1277404.  Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:40 pm Reply with quote

Husband isn't sure about that, but you may well be right.

What he does know is that Atherton took two wickets in test matches before largely giving up bowling in his late 20s. "One was a dodgy lbw and the other was a good catch off a full toss", apparently.

He wasn't a rubbish bowler, but he wouldn't have gotten into anything better than a club team purely as a bowler - or so the man says.

Alfred E Neuman
1278107.  Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:28 am Reply with quote

I read a good article on cricinfo on the current state of affairs between South Africa and Australia, which includes a useful summary of how the code of conduct and the penalties got to where they are now.

In short, Australia manage the system well, but should pay a bit more attention to how they are perceived by the rest of the wood, and South Africa should get over their victim mentality and start taking the guidance offered by officials more seriously.

If I were to paraphrase - Australia could grow up and stop acting like school yard bullies, and South Africa could grow up and stop acting like babies. Your mileage may vary.


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