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Value of higher education

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GuyBarry
1244289.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:46 pm Reply with quote

cnb wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:

But a lot of people don't have reasonable choice over whether they study for a degree. They're pressurized into it by their school, their family, their friends. You actually have to be quite brave now to resist the pressure. In fact, you could argue that young people without degrees have demonstrated a greater independence of mind than their peers who have chosen to go to university.

Most people want to earn more money in order to be able to afford a higher standard of living. They assume that others want the same. If you're honest enough to say "I want to be poor" then I expect the pressure will go away. People will think you're very odd, but they'll understand why you don't want to go to university.


It's not "I want to be poor". It's "I want to go out and start earning money now, rather than wait three years and get myself into tens of thousands of pounds' worth of debt". I can quite understand that mentality.

Quote:
GuyBarry wrote:

Well I've never earned 28,000 a year or anything like it, and I don't expect to.


Ever?


No. Not ever. I think I got to about 17,500 once or twice.

Quote:
There can't be many people with three degrees who never earn above average salary. The system is designed (badly, see below) to deal with the general case, not outliers like yourself. I imagine that most people with high-level qualifications and low incomes are in that situation because of a deliberate choice to do something they consider worthy, or because of caring responsibilities at home. There are not many such people.


Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.

Quote:
You may not wish to tell us, and that's fine, but it would be interesting to know why you don't want to, or can't, earn more given your qualifications.


Because I'd be in hock to some awful organization like the one PDR works for. It would be hell on earth.

 
suze
1244293.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:00 pm Reply with quote

As it happens, I would not choose to work for the organization that PDR does either.

But that's only because I have some issues with the nature of its business. There is an understanding on these forums that we don't name the company, and we will please keep to that understanding, but it is in the defence sector and that's not for me.

Its HR practices, though, are in fact in many ways admirable. We've had previous discussions - I dare say the forum search would find them - in which I've been rather impressed with both things that the company does and that it does not do.


I expect there are things which some would find awful about the organization for which I do work, and I've never been shy about complaining to management about this and that. Even so, I can't immediately think of anywhere else that I would rather work.

All that said, I earn a bit more than 28,000 per annum. Much as I don't consider it to be what I'm doing, I accept that it's easier to "put up" with an organization when you're being fairly well paid for it.

 
cornixt
1244294.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:05 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.

That is a bit of a problem when it comes to employment.

I worked for PDR's company and there were plenty of people there without degrees. They even employed people like me who only got a 2:2.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1244295.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:11 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
Because I'd be in hock to some awful organization like the one PDR works for. It would be hell on earth.


Eh? You do realise that there are millions of jobs in hundreds of thousands of companies in thousands of industries out there, right? You don't actually have to work in a company like PDR's (on which I'm very much with suze) to make more than 28,000. I do in advertising (without major effort), suze does in teaching and I'm sure many others here do in many other jobs.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


Last edited by AlmondFacialBar on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
GuyBarry
1244296.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:17 pm Reply with quote

cornixt wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:
Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.

That is a bit of a problem when it comes to employment.


Yup, I know. And yet I did amazingly well at school.

I'm probably a nightmare for any employer. If someone tells me to do something that I disagree with, I just leave.

They didn't explain that to me at school. They told me that if I passed this exam and this other exam, I'd be OK.

Well it's rubbish and I think that education is deceitful.

 
PDR
1244297.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:28 pm Reply with quote

cornixt wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:
Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.

That is a bit of a problem when it comes to employment.

I worked for PDR's company and there were plenty of people there without degrees. They even employed people like me who only got a 2:2.


But to be clear - I believe you didn't come into the company on the grad scheme ("GDF/GDY"), I'm guessing you came in to a specific job. I mention this to anticipate any comment that it conflicts with what I said previously (which applied to the grad intake, not other general recruitment). I also joined the company in a specific job (I joined this company when I was 29, not straight from uni) and didn't do the GDF programme. Also my remarks only apply to the professional grades - not the manufacturing staff or special roles like security, drivers, secretarial etc.

I also earn "a bit more than" 28k; I was actually thinking that earning under 20k FTE with one undergrad and two post-grad qualifications is probably rare enough to qualify as an achievement of some note!

:0)

PDR

 
PDR
1244298.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:31 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:

Well it's rubbish and I think that education is deceitful.


Absolutely! I think Suze should hang her head in shame and move to a more ethical field like mine...

:0)

PDR

 
AlmondFacialBar
1244300.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:37 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
I was actually thinking that earning under 20k FTE with one undergrad and two post-grad qualifications is probably rare enough to qualify as an achievement of some note!

:0)

PDR


*nods*

I certainly never have and that's coming from someone who notoriously sucks at getting into the well-paid end of the job market.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar


Last edited by AlmondFacialBar on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:45 pm; edited 3 times in total

 
cornixt
1244301.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:42 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
cornixt wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:
Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.

That is a bit of a problem when it comes to employment.

I worked for PDR's company and there were plenty of people there without degrees. They even employed people like me who only got a 2:2.


But to be clear - I believe you didn't come into the company on the grad scheme ("GDF/GDY"), I'm guessing you came in to a specific job.

It was part of the grad scheme at the time, but some time ago. I guess they weren't quite so picky back then, but there were quite a few people I worked with who came in through the apprentice scheme and were doing equivalent work. They didn't get to go on the same jollies though.

 
cornixt
1244302.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:47 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
I'm probably a nightmare for any employer. If someone tells me to do something that I disagree with, I just leave.


Either a nightmare or someone they will get rid of at the next opportunity. If it is within your job description then suck it up, if work was always fun then it wouldn't be called work.


Last edited by cornixt on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

 
GuyBarry
1244303.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:53 pm Reply with quote

PDR wrote:

I also earn "a bit more than" 28k; I was actually thinking that earning under 20k FTE with one undergrad and two post-grad qualifications is probably rare enough to qualify as an achievement of some note!


Yeah, well I earn zero at the moment, and my entire income comes from Universal Credit (I'm currently signed off sick). Make of that what you will.

The people at the Jobcentre aren't impressed by how many qualifications I've got. They want to see skills that will actually get people into a job. I don't actually have to apply for vacancies at the moment, but when I do, I'll be expected to take any job of which I'm capable. My last job involved working at a bookmaker's, for the minimum wage.

There really is too much division between the "haves" and "have-nots" in our society, as I've said.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1244311.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:24 pm Reply with quote

There sure is, but I'm not sure how much bearing that has on your situation. The truth is that the Jobcentre is simply the wrong place for you to go. They don't cater to university graduates and never have. The grad and even more the postgrad employment market works through other channels. You upload your CV to recruitment sites, you put your profile on LinkedIn, you submit your CV for vacancies on company Web sites, you talk to friends, you work your professional mafia, you keep your ear on the grapevine, you get a foot in the door with a job close to what you really want and go further from there... Rely on the Jobcentre and you're essentially fucked.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Alfred E Neuman
1244319.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:46 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.


Considering the amount of time you spend telling others what to do, that's a bit hypocritical.

GuyBarry wrote:
Well it's rubbish and I think that education is deceitful.


You certainly managed to hang in there for a long time though.


In addition to dedicating many years of your life to higher education even though it's rubbish, you've admitted that your lack of earning capacity is due to your attitude and not your education, yet you still bang on about it being such a waste of time and money. How sure are you that it's not just a chip on your shoulder?

 
cnb
1244324.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:31 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:

Nope. Not me. I just don't like being told what to do.


The idea that in order to live more than a subsistence lifestyle you have to do things that other people want in exchange for their money is pretty fundamental to our society. It's been that way for hundreds of years.

Your suggestion that the education system failed to prepare you for the reality of work is bizarre. You shouldn't need to be taught something that fundamental, you should be able to work it out by being part of society throughout your childhood. My 6 year old daughter understands the basic principle that I go to work to do what my boss wants me to, and that in return he gives me money to pay for our home and food.

 
suze
1244335.  Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:01 pm Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
I'm probably a nightmare for any employer. If someone tells me to do something that I disagree with, I just leave.


Then start your own business. That's what my husband did when he came to the realization that he didn't really like having a boss man telling him what to do.

Yes, it's a higher risk option than taking a salaried job. And OK, it did help that husband knew that I was in reasonably well paid and reasonably secure employment.

But it beats the hell out of sitting on your arse blaming everyone but yourself for your woeful lot. Had that been husband's style all those years ago, he'd probably never have become my husband.

 

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