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'yorz
1242166.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:18 am Reply with quote

@ GuyBarry - It will be me, but whatever you see in the text, it ain't what I read.

 
Alfred E Neuman
1242167.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:25 am Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
Quote:
It's fairly clear that she was condemned for disobeying a command.


Yes, and the command was (implicitly) "Don't cover up your genitals". If Genesis is to be taken literally, then we're all being punished by God for wearing pants.


As I see it, command was "Don't eat the fruit from that tree.".

 
GuyBarry
1242170.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:29 am Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
@ GuyBarry - It will be me, but whatever you see in the text, it ain't what I read.


OK, well let's quote the bit that I left out then (Genesis 3:1-7). This is the New International Version, by the way.

Quote:
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


It seems absolutely straightforward to me. She was told not to eat the fruit that would make her and Adam ashamed of their genitals. She disobeyed the command. If she had done as instructed, then she and Adam would happily have continued walking around naked, and God would have approved.

 
filofax
1242174.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:52 am Reply with quote

It wasn't that the fruit had any kind of magic powers vis a vis genital awareness. I think eating of the fruit led to a loss of innocence.

Before they were childlike and therefore had no notion of modesty.
Loss of innocence through disobedience led to awareness of their nakedness, and consequently shame.

 
GuyBarry
1242176.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:59 am Reply with quote

"The eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked." It was as a direct consequence of eating the fruit that they developed feelings of modesty. I don't see how the passage can be interpreted any other way.

Incidentally I've just gone and read Genesis 2, and realized that the woman didn't exist when God gave Adam the command; she was created afterwards. So she can't be accused of disobeying God, and it seems rather unfair of God to punish her like that.

Also God said that Adam would die if he ate the fruit, and he didn't. Was God lying, or is God not omniscient as generally assumed?

[It's this sort of stuff that makes me relieved that I'm not religious!]

 
filofax
1242178.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:11 am Reply with quote

Well yes, but (as I see it) God didn't say;

this apple will make you aware of your naked bodies, because that's what it does, in much the same way as carrots are believed to be good for your eyesight.

what he said was 'don't eat this, just because I say so'.

It was the act of disobedience which led to the loss of innocence, not the actual eating of the apple.

But I'm about as religious as my cat, so what do I know?

What I CAN tell you, to get back to 'yorz's questions about faith and bodies, is that Italy is about as Catholic a society as you can get, and nobody really cares about naked breasts. Indeed they have a pretty healthy attitude towards bodies.
Of course, you have to cover yourself to actually go into a church, but in day to day live nobody cares about breastfeeding, topless beaches, naked saunas, communal changing rooms. There really isn't any shame attached to bodies.

 
GuyBarry
1242183.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:36 am Reply with quote

filofax wrote:

what he said was 'don't eat this, just because I say so'.


No, what he said was "don't eat it because you'll die" (Genesis 2:17, paraphrased). However the serpent said that they wouldn't die and encouraged them to eat it because they'd know good and evil. You'd think that they would rather have believed God than a serpent, but it turns out that the serpent was right. The moral of this story is clearly that God is less trustworthy than a serpent. We should all be worshipping the serpent instead!

Quote:
But I'm about as religious as my cat, so what do I know?


Well, what does anybody know? I get the feeling that if more people actually read the Bible they might realize what a load of rubbish it all is. Anyway, this is getting some way off the point...

Quote:
What I CAN tell you, to get back to 'yorz's questions about faith and bodies, is that Italy is about as Catholic a society as you can get, and nobody really cares about naked breasts. Indeed they have a pretty healthy attitude towards bodies.


The discussion wasn't originally about bare breasts though. I get the feeling that attitudes to bare breasts vary considerably from one culture to another, whereas attitudes to exposed genitals are pretty much uniform - certainly in "civilized" nations. Whether this has anything to do with organized religion, I strongly doubt.

 
crissdee
1242184.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:39 am Reply with quote

GuyBarry wrote:
She was told not to eat the fruit that would make her and Adam ashamed of their genitals. She disobeyed the command.


The shame, and the genitals, are a secondary factor. The sin was as emboldened* above.



*Is that a word???????

 
'yorz
1242185.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:42 am Reply with quote

@ filo: but what is the (Italian) church's stance on naked breasts etc? Is it condoned? Is the church futilely railing against it? Are Italians only religious when it suits them? If today the church were to state that nakedness is a sin, would that change the Italian attitude towards it? If Italians are that religious, would they then go to confession and own up to flashing their flesh?

 
filofax
1242191.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:23 am Reply with quote

Not sure the Church really HAS a stance on boobs, but I am extremely ignorant.
Could well be that priests are pontificating every Sunday about modesty and decorum, but never having been to a church service beyond the occasional wedding or funeral, I wouldn't know.
All I can say is that if they are, it isn't having much effect on Italian societal behaviours.

I do go to choir with an extremely religious lady, who taught Catholic religion in schools and, now retired, teaches catechism to kiddies for fun.
I will admit to having preconceived ideas of religious people, so I was somewhat shocked by her bawdy jokes when I was eating a popsicle!
She laughed off my scandalised expression, saying that sex and the enjoyment of it was a gift from God, and there was no reason why we shouldn't be able to have a laugh about it. And quite right too!


Last edited by filofax on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:34 am; edited 1 time in total

 
filofax
1242192.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:33 am Reply with quote

A very quick Google shows that the Catholic Church seems to have as many attitudes to nudity as it has members, but this interesting passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church seems fairly liberal and open to personal interpretation:

The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person

So it's more about attitude than how many inches of skin you display.

 
GuyBarry
1242199.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:15 am Reply with quote

crissdee wrote:
GuyBarry wrote:
She was told not to eat the fruit that would make her and Adam ashamed of their genitals. She disobeyed the command.


The shame, and the genitals, are a secondary factor. The sin was as emboldened* above.


See my response here.

Quote:
*Is that a word???????


Yes.

 
suze
1242237.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:55 am Reply with quote

filofax wrote:
Not sure the Church really HAS a stance on boobs, but I am extremely ignorant.


It doesn't really. The RC stance on nakedness is taken largely from a book by the man who went on to become Pope John Paul II. That book was originally published in Polish in 1960 as Miłość i Odpowiedzialność, and was published in English translation in 1981 with a revised edition in 2013.

JPII wrote that "The human body can remain nude and uncovered and preserve intact its splendour and its beauty. Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness. Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person."

So if I walk into a bar naked in the hope that men will leer at my bits, I am being immodest and that's bad. But if I choose to lie on the beach naked because I find it more comfortable than being clothed, I am doing nothing wrong.

It's notable that in warmer Catholic countries such as Italy and Spain, boobs are everywhere. You'll see mothers and daughters topless on the beach alongside their husbands and brothers, and no one finds this improper. The attitude is different in countries like Ireland and Poland, but then those countries don't really have the weather for it.

 
'yorz
1242251.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:57 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
The attitude is different in countries like Ireland and Poland, but then those countries don't really have the weather for it.

In Ireland, the climate has nowt to do with it - it's illegal there.

 
suze
1242264.  Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:17 pm Reply with quote

That link says to me that actually, it probably isn't quite illegal. But all the same it's not done, so don't do it.

If public nudity is considered unacceptable in Ireland - whether or not it's actually illegal - does this mean that it is never encountered on the Dublin stage or on Irish television?

Poland was until very recently in a similar place to Ireland. While public nudity was never quite illegal it was not the done thing, and if you wanted to get naked at the beach then you'd better go somewhere remote to do it.

That has changed a bit in the last decade. For a few years, Polish theatre and movies were as full of bare bodies as were British movies of the 70s, although that novelty has by now worn off.

But no one bats an eyelid if those who attend Przystanek Woodstock - an annual rock festival along similar lines to Glastonbury - take their clothes off either to soak up the rays or to wallow in the mud. Their grandmothers might not approve, but they're not there.

 

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