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Secular morality versus religion-fed morality

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monzac
1246994.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:03 am Reply with quote

Isn't it that you get the reward for present pain in the afterlife? Live through shitty conditions and enjoy ecstasy when you're dead?

As far as bad stuff happening, my mother's response was that one should 'offer it up as an act' (of worship, I think).

The good life is not for the here and now. This is a great disservice in that it keeps the downtrodden downtrodden. It is lacking faith to complain or to expect better.

 
PDR
1246995.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:08 am Reply with quote

I wish I couuld remember who it was but can't, but someone once pointed out that it's better to NOT believe in "fate", "karma" or any other divine intervention stuff because if you DO believe in it then it means that you actually deserved all the bad shit that happens to you.

PDR

 
monzac
1246996.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:16 am Reply with quote

But I think the Catholics, at least, had this covered with the dogma that the reward is to come when you're no longer alive, and no one* comes back to let you know if this has worked :/

*A notable exception offered up their life to atone for all the rest of us.

(The crock is full, as far as I'm concerned.)

 
tetsabb
1247003.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:34 am Reply with quote

I saw something about one of the Southern States evangelical preacher types who has claimed that natural disasters such as hurricanes are God's way of punishing the bad for such things as homosexuality and so forth. Guess whose house has been trashed by Hurricane Harvey and the rains that came with it?
Explain that one, bozo.

 
cornixt
1247008.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:19 am Reply with quote

I prefer the explanation that they are being punished for electing Trump and treating immigrants so poorly.

 
suze
1247013.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:44 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
I wish I couuld remember who it was but can't, but someone once pointed out that it's better to NOT believe in "fate", "karma" or any other divine intervention stuff because if you DO believe in it then it means that you actually deserved all the bad shit that happens to you.


But then what of the old saw that "There are no atheists in foxholes" (or "in the trenches", or other variations)?

Research at Cornell (Wansink, 2013) showed that 32% of (American) soldiers indulged in prayer when not in battle, but that this figure increased to 74% in battle conditions.

Does Pascal's wager apply here? If there is no God, it won't make any difference whether you pray to Him or not. But if there is a God, just maybe it might.

(I suppose I should note at this point that I believe in God, which may influence my opinion here.)

 
Jenny
1247016.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:54 am Reply with quote

What if the kind of God you believe in doesn't do things like answer prayers?

 
PDR
1247024.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:10 am Reply with quote

Well there is always the famous (and probably apocryphal) conversation between the Minister for Civil Defence and ACM Hugh Dowding at the height of the battle of britain, when pilot and aircraft losses were concerningly high:

MCD: Churchill puts great faith in radar.

Dowding: It's vital, but it won't shoot down aircraft.

MCD: [petulantly] Well, I must say, you don't exactly exude a spirit of optimism.

Dowding: God willing we will hold out, Minister.

MCD: I see. So I'm to tell the cabinet, that you're trusting in radar and praying to God, is that right?

Dowding: [sarcastically] More accurately the other way round. Trusting in God and praying for radar.


PDR

 
cornixt
1247052.  Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:02 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
But then what of the old saw that "There are no atheists in foxholes" (or "in the trenches", or other variations)?

There are only atheists in foxholes, a true believer would be shielded by his faith.

Quote:

Does Pascal's wager apply here? If there is no God, it won't make any difference whether you pray to Him or not. But if there is a God, just maybe it might.

Desperate people will clutch at any straw, it doesn't make you a believer though. A solid 26% who don't pray even when desperate is more telling about how many people don't have faith.

 
'yorz
1248881.  Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:13 am Reply with quote

Referring to the OP: I may have stumbled on a society/tribe that does live without gods - the Etoto people.

Swallowing semen from the tribe's elders in your formative years for a decade is supposed to give you power, but that is a belief. A belief is not necessarily a religion. The article does not mention a Holy Archibald or Rufus or Giles as Head Instigator of that custom, nor any rituals to give that long-lasting Rite of Passage (hah) a deeper meaning.

 
bobwilson
1249319.  Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:18 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
"There are no atheists in foxholes"


To be blunt - I wouldn't trust the judgement of anyone in a foxhole.

Almost by definition, you have to be an idiot to be in a foxhole - you're probably fighting an enemy that (to sort of quote someone militarily famous) "you don't even know well enough to hate", for a reason/cause that you probably don't understand and with an outcome which will have no material benefit to yourself.

(Just thinking that through quickly - war, any war, seems to be the quickest way to exterminate religion)

 
duglasbell@hotmail.co.uk
1249949.  Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:59 pm Reply with quote

Quick (!) comment on tabloid-fed moral panics.

A tablet from ancient Assyria c. 2800 BC says "Our Earth is degenerate these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common".

More than 2000 years later Socrates complained "Children are now tyrants. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs and tyrannise over their teachers".

Plato later wrote of his students "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

Makes you think..

Source: I Asimov, The Book of Facts, Volume 1

 
Strawberry
1249950.  Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:08 pm Reply with quote

duglasbell: Both the quotations that are claimed to be from Socrates and Plato, are not from them. As can be seen in the link below.

Link

 
'yorz
1249954.  Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:15 pm Reply with quote

And besides, that does not deal with the religion-fed vs secular morality based question in the OP. These ancient gripes about yoof are well-known.

 
crissdee
1249959.  Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:03 pm Reply with quote

Just looking at the picture at the head of that page Strawberry linked to, and I wish to raise a point of order.

It is clearly an image of one Mr S Holmes, from the background I would suggest it is him looking down from the ledge above the path leading to the Reichenbach Falls, when he was supposed to have fallen to his death with Professor Moriarty.

BUT!

Leaning against the wall behind him is his alpenstock, the one he left with his final note to Watson before the confrontation with Moriarty, and certainly didn't take with him on the treacherous climb to the ledge.

Just sayin........

 

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