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For Suze - Europe's first Brexit ruling

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PDR
1209275.  Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:24 pm Reply with quote

At last - some decisions

PDR

 
Spud McLaren
1209276.  Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:35 pm Reply with quote

Glad to see that the life-or-death decisions are taking priority.

 
suze
1209291.  Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:56 pm Reply with quote

Hurrah!

Polish nouns ending with a consonant are usually masculine, so I'd expect it to be ruled masculine in that language too. There is strictly no letter <x> in the Polish alphabet and so the form Breksit may be used in more conservative newspapers, but most Poles are tolerably relaxed about allowing this strange foreign letter to occur in strange foreign words.

So repeat after teacher: Brexit (subject), Brexitu (of Brexit), Brexitowy (to Brexit), Brexit (object), Brexitem (with or beyond Brexit), Brexite (inside or about Brexit), Brexite! (O Brexit!). Using the regular paradigm for masculine inanimate nouns, you can work out the plural forms - although why you'd ever need them I'm not sure - for yourselves ...

 
AlmondFacialBar
1209318.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:35 am Reply with quote

I am now thinking of a feasible occasion to use Brexit in the Vocative and the only one I can think of is Vogon poetry...

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
PDR
1209325.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:22 am Reply with quote

Just be aware that if you start reading it here I'll be heading for the airlock...

PDR

 
suze
1209333.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:09 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
I am now thinking of a feasible occasion to use Brexit in the Vocative and the only one I can think of is Vogon poetry...


Vogon poetry about Brexit is a thing for which the world is not yet ready, but a newspaper headline just might use the vocative form.

"Brexit, it's time for you", the Daily Express might write. "Brexit, you are not altogether welcome", a column in The Guardian might write. Those sentences put into Polish should use the vocative form of Brexit, although in practice a lot of Poles would use the nominative.

The Polish vocative is on the way out, and in much of Poland it has practically disappeared. It's still used in poetry and in some forms of prayer, but only the tweediest of Arts professors would use it in addressing a student. Tabloid journalism uses it hardly at all, although the more conservative newspapers would use it in a headline such as those above.

The vocative disappeared from Russian several centuries ago, and has disappeared from Bulgarian and Slovak within our lifetimes. In the case of Slovak, there was a government decree abolishing it - but there's some evidence that younger Slovaks are by now using Hungarian vocative forms to replace the abandoned Slovak ones!

Both Czech and Polish are slowly losing their vocatives, but in Serbian (et cetera) and Ukrainian it is still considered slovenly to use the nominative in its stead.

 
AlmondFacialBar
1209334.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:23 am Reply with quote

Ok yeah, you have a point about headlines there. :-)

Is there any Indoeuropean language in which case forms and their inflections aren't disappearing?

I also feel strongly inspired to write a Vogon Brexit poem now just to be contrary.

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
Spoilt Victorian
1209337.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:09 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
I also feel strongly inspired to write a Vogon Brexit poem now just to be contrary.


I've been having some fun with this

 
suze
1209338.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:30 am Reply with quote

AlmondFacialBar wrote:
Is there any Indoeuropean language in which case forms and their inflections aren't disappearing?


Probably not.

The most conservative of the IE languages still spoken are usually said to be Icelandic and Lithuanian. Icelandic has the same four case system as German, but the dative is slowly disappearing into the accusative. Lithuanian had a ten case system until about 1900, but three of them have all but disappeared since.

Ukrainian is desperately clinging on to its vocative in order to "prove" that it's not just funny looking Russian, but it won't cling on forever.

Dutch abolished its four case system overnight in 1947, and the government of India abandoned five of the eight cases of Classical Sanskrit when it codified the grammar of Modern Hindi in 1954. One of the three which remains is a fast-disappearing vocative, by now used only in the plural, which will surely disappear altogether before long.

The Baltic and Slavic languages, with their lack of the definite article and their free word order, need a case system more than the Germanic and Romance languages do.

But the Slavic languages will notice when German has reduced to having no case system beyond an English genitive (das Lutfkissenfahrzeugs Aale, that sort of thing, although the neuter will probably have disappeared into the masculine by then), and will eventually get there themselves. It won't be for several hundred years, but it will surely happen.

 
'yorz
1209366.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:29 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Dutch abolished its four case system overnight in 1947.


Eh? Somehow this must have bypassed my teachers who taught us all four cases. And as far as I know, all four are still used, although the 2nd one only exists in archaic expressions.

 
suze
1209371.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:09 am Reply with quote

Pronouns don't count!

I can't really explain why this is so, but even languages like English and French which abandoned their case systems centuries ago still have distinct accusative and genitive forms of the pronouns. (I/me/mine, ils/eux/leur, and so on).

Jamaican Patwa has abandoned this case distinction and has also abandoned gender in pronouns, and so im means he, him, she, or her. It has also largely abandoned plurals (except for pronouns), and so Im fada gan jeil nuff time could mean "Her father has been to prison on a number of occasions". But in just about every other form of English, pronouns vary for case.

So it is in Dutch, but no longer is in the case that you must write De kat zat op den mat or Ik ben gewoon een vogel in den luchte. Spoken Dutch hasn't used those forms regularly since about 1700, but until 1947 they were expected in writing and your teacher would have put red ink all over your work if you'd written them as you'd say them.

 
PDR
1209373.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:16 am Reply with quote

Mijn hovercraft is vol palingen

PDR

 
AlmondFacialBar
1209376.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:33 am Reply with quote

Mein Luftkissenboot ist voller Aale

:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
PDR
1209383.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:51 am Reply with quote

הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים

 
14-11-2014
1209385.  Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:29 pm Reply with quote

Quote:
in Dutch, but no longer is in the case that you must write De kat zat op den mat or Ik ben gewoon een vogel in den luchte.

Den Haag ('s-Gravenhage), Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch), Den Dolder, Den Helder, and so on. In naam der koning. Dichter des vaderlands.

Ober, er zit een haar in mijn soep.
Ober, er zit een mijn in haar soep.

 

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