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PDR
1207758.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:50 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
Jenny wrote:
I think it's a misconception that a universal vegan diet means no animal abuse. What about all the farm animals that won't even have a life?

Is your argument that not existing is a form of abuse?


Today we have billions of farm animals. If we all go vegan at midnight tonight what happens top all these animals? Most are not capable of feral existence, and the milking herds will be in agony by 18:00 tomorrow (and probably dead by the end of the weekend).

Quote:
First you must establish that there would actually be "much wider use of land for arable crops".


If we don't kill and eat these animals they will still consume feed, so the additional yummy-vegan burgers mankind will need from breakfast tomorrow onwards will require annexation of ever more fertile land, an Anschluss which would deprive currently wild animals of their natural habitats.

Then you have to factor in the vast increase in greenhouse-gas emissions from the larger vegetarian population, not to mention the massively greater consequential use of air freshener.

PDR

 
Spud McLaren
1207761.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:56 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
Today we have billions of farm animals. If we all go vegan at midnight tonight what happens top all these animals?
Well, even if we all went vegan, we wouldn't be dong it overnight. But as we gradually made the change, we could cease the intensive production of farm animals.
Quote:
Then you have to factor in the vast increase in greenhouse-gas emissions from the larger vegetarian population
...which you'd have to prove outweighed the former greenhouse gas production from the animals we weren't now producing to inefficiently feed the population.

 
PDR
1207766.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:01 am Reply with quote

Spud McLaren wrote:
PDR wrote:
Today we have billions of farm animals. If we all go vegan at midnight tonight what happens top all these animals?
Well, even if we all went vegan, we wouldn't be dong it overnight. But as we gradually made the change, we could cease the intensive production of farm animals.


Many of the stages of that process are cusps with associated step-function reductions, but even setting that aside - who decised which people are bludgeoned into veganism while other still get steaks?

Quote:

Quote:
Then you have to factor in the vast increase in greenhouse-gas emissions from the larger vegetarian population
...which you'd have to prove outweighed the former greenhouse gas production from the animals we weren't now producing to inefficiently feed the population.


Never pervert a fatuous point by introducing facts and reason - that's just the bullying we've come to expect from experts, and I think we've heard quite enough from experts...

PDR

 
Spud McLaren
1207769.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:05 am Reply with quote

PDR wrote:
Never pervert a fatuous point by introducing facts and reason - that's just the bullying we've come to expect from experts, and I think we've heard quite enough from experts...
Good point, well made.

 
PDR
1207773.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:12 am Reply with quote

:0)

 
Zziggy
1207777.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:32 am Reply with quote

Spud McLaren wrote:
barbados wrote:
[...] there is a huge effect by not using animal products, they range from the nasty bacon sandwich to the water that we drink
Please elucidate, barb; I don't think I'm aware of this.

ISWYDT

 
cornixt
1207786.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:17 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
Jenny wrote:
What about the loss of habitat for animals brought about by much wider use of land for arable crops?

First you must establish that there would actually be "much wider use of land for arable crops". Worldwide, 40% of land used to grow crops is used to grow crops that goes to feed animals, but in richer countries it's closer to about 70%. It is extremely inefficient.

Not all land used to produce animal feed is suitable for other crops. There is a lot of farmland near where I live that is used to grow grasses for hay simply because it can't be used to grow anything else - hay is not especially profitable.

No one seems to have brought up the weird morality of giving people life-threatening allergies in order to force them to stop eating meat.

 
Zziggy
1207787.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:28 am Reply with quote

I'm not sure we're caring loads about categorical imperatives in a thread where someone has seriously said that not being able to impregnate a pig in order to kill its baby so that you can eat its corpse would be bad because said corpse is, quote, "tasty".

 
Spud McLaren
1207789.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:12 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
ISWYDT
Sh.

 
barbados
1207790.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:20 am Reply with quote

Spud McLaren wrote:
barbados wrote:
[...] there is a huge effect by not using animal products, they range from the nasty bacon sandwich to the water that we drink
Please elucidate, barb; I don't think I'm aware of this.

Oooo its a good one Spud, we were discussing the fact that white sugar isn't vegan a while back at school, i wasn't aware there were animal products in sugar, figuring that it was pretty much a vegetable. Turns out part of the processing involves it being filtered, an that is where the problem lies there - the best filtering substrate is carbon, and the best of all the carbons that you can get for filtering is bone char, the same stuff that the water companies use to filter your drinking water. That makes it not strictly vegan.
I put it in the TIL thread at the time.

 
Zziggy
1207791.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:22 am Reply with quote

And I immediately debunked it, IIRC.

 
14-11-2014
1207792.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:33 am Reply with quote

Post 1204765, IIRC. DYSWIDT?

 
barbados
1207843.  Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:15 pm Reply with quote

Cheeky monkey ;)

 
PDR
1207898.  Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:42 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
I'm not sure we're caring loads about categorical imperatives in a thread where someone has seriously said that not being able to impregnate a pig in order to kill its baby so that you can eat its corpse would be bad because said corpse is, quote, "tasty".


With anything else this argument may have carried significant weight, but in this case it is too easily refuted with the three words:

"Hot Bacon Sandwiches"

Mmmmmmmmm...

PDR

 
crissdee
1207907.  Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:11 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
.........impregnate a pig in order to kill its baby so that you can eat its corpse.......



While I completely respect your choice to be a vegetarian, using emotive language like this is not going to change anyone's mind about the matter. It rather makes you come across as the simpering fool I am pretty sure you are not. Just stick to "breeding pigs for meat" and we all know what is involved.

 

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