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Brexit (the EU Referendum debate)

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Brock
1390494.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:59 am Reply with quote

Did they actually promise us a trade deal with the US? They certainly talked up the prospect and made it sound as though it'd be really easy, but I don't recall a specific promise on it.

I think this might fall into the category of "failed objectives" rather than "broken promises".

 
Alexander Howard
1390509.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:42 am Reply with quote

Boris has now gone back to the land of his birth. Maybe while he is there he will seduce Nancy Pelosi and come back with a sweetheart deal.

The problem with American negotiators is that they only look to American interests, blinding them to all other considerations. It is quite a contrast to Boris's negotiators, who look at British interests and nothing else matters.

 
CB27
1390532.  Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:09 pm Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
Boris has now gone back to the land of his birth. Maybe while he is there he will seduce Nancy Pelosi and come back with a sweetheart deal.

The problem with American negotiators is that they only look to American interests, blinding them to all other considerations. It is quite a contrast to Boris's negotiators, who look at Tory interests and nothing else matters.

FTFY

 
Alexander Howard
1390579.  Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:02 am Reply with quote

There is a problem you get negotiating with the Americans, irrespective of which mob holds the White House. Their business lobby will press to get tariff-free access to the market and for consumer standards to be low enough that their shoddy merchandise and plastic food isn't stopped in Southampton Dock, but they don't want to let competing goods in.

Sometimes it is superstition, like the notorious ban on haggis. Mostly it is monopolisation.

The American steel industry resists imports, claiming they will take American jobs. Steel is not a big sector though compared with industries which use steel, and securing a cartel means the rest of industry is stuck with high prices, which can cause more job losses.

The American authorities will levy tariffs on companies which receive subsidies, as that undercuts honest competition - fair enough - but then give big companies massive hand-outs in the form of overpriced government contracts which are not open to foreign companies.

Somehow, they do not see the contradictions.

 
suze
1390652.  Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:31 am Reply with quote

Oh, they do see the contradiction but they believe that they have the right to demand that contradiction.

It's called American Exceptionalism. It is a theme in American politics that the US has the right to demand things of other countries that it would not be willing to grant unto them, because it's special. Anyone who critiicises this idea is probably a communist. No President could ever disown this idea in public, because a lot of Americans actually believe it and to disown the idea would lose an election.

UKIP tried briefly to propound a similar theory of British Exceptionalism. People from the funny foreign EU shouldn't be allowed to come to Britain, but British people should still be allowed to go to the funny foreign EU because Britain is special. Even Nigel Farage couldn't really defend that notion and so it never become formal policy - although Boris Johnson sometimes tries to go down that road too. Telling M Macron in Paris to "gettez un grip" is perhaps not going to be seen as a triumph of dilplomacy.

 
Brock
1390656.  Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:44 am Reply with quote

The Boris Johnson version is called "cakeism", isn't it?

 
tetsabb
1390663.  Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:54 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:


It's called American Exceptionalism. It is a theme in American politics that the US has the right to demand things of other countries that it would not be willing to grant unto them, because it's special. Anyone who critiicises this idea is probably a communist. No President could ever disown this idea in public, because a lot of Americans actually believe it and to disown the idea would lose an election.


Is this related to Manifest Destiny?

 
suze
1390673.  Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:21 pm Reply with quote

Manifest Destiny was a related concept, certainly. That term fell out of use around the time of WWI, and Woodrow Wilson was the last President to use it in his speeches.

Manifest Destiny was largely about expanding US territory. Anyone that the US chose to colonise would obviously let that happen, because the US is obviously better than them, that sort of thing. Yes, that is uncomfortably similar to Lebensraum and so the concept seems unlikely to be revived in that form.

It was largely a Democrat thing. Abraham Lincoln - a Republican - thought it was a silly idea and said so on numerous occasions. At this point we have to remember that the Democrats and the Republicans practically swapped platforms in the early C20.

The term American Exceptionalism was used in European political writing from about 1840, but Americans didn't use it of themselves - and think it a good thing too - until the 1930s, by which time Woodrow Wilson and Manifest Destiny were dead.

 
tetsabb
1390861.  Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:26 pm Reply with quote

I have asked this question a few times since June 2016 and am still hoping for an answer.
In what simple, tangible ways are our lives going to be better with Brexit?
'Cos, at the moment, I am seeing nuffink.

 
Brock
1390865.  Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:11 pm Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
I have asked this question a few times since June 2016 and am still hoping for an answer.
In what simple, tangible ways are our lives going to be better with Brexit?
'Cos, at the moment, I am seeing nuffink.


When you asked that question in February (post 1374151), I did suggest that the success of the UK's vaccine rollout compared with the EU's might be seen as at least partly attributable to Brexit. However, since then, the EU's vaccine rollout has caught up with the UK's, and some countries have overtaken us.

So I'm afraid I can see no advantages to Brexit at all now - it's all downsides. Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian today explains how Brexit, while not the sole cause of many of the current "supply chain issues", has made them a lot worse than in the rest of Europe:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/food-petrol-shortages-brexit-goods-johnson-botched-deal

I learned one particularly interesting thing from that article - that Northern Ireland hasn't been affected by the CO2 shortage, because it's still inside the EU's single market and can source supplies from continental Europe. I'd like to see the Government explain its way out of that one!

I ought to add one other thing: it's specifically the Government's decision to go for a "hard" Brexit, outside the single market and customs union, that's led to all these problems. Had we gone for Theresa May's deal (or something like it), I don't believe we'd be seeing anything like this level of disruption.

 
suze
1390877.  Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:31 pm Reply with quote

But the passports are blue, and that's all that matters!


(Even though it was Margaret Thatcher and not a diktat from the EU which turned them red. Just another lie that lots of idiots chose to believe ...)

 
barbados
1390891.  Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:03 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
But the passports are blue, and that's all that matters!


(Even though it was Margaret Thatcher and not a diktat from the EU which turned them red. Just another lie that lots of idiots chose to believe ...)

You do have to wonder why the colour of the cover of a document is so important to remoaners like yourself.

 
PDR
1390893.  Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:12 am Reply with quote

The colour of passports is not important to "remainers" - it was the Brexit Mendocracy who made this issue and brought in this change as you know full well. It is the unending unmitigated stream of lies that flow from the Brexiteers, and the abject failure to deliver on any of the promised they made to extort votes from the gullible that is important to us.

But congratulations for so quickly attempting to deflect in your trademark style with yet another blatant lie.

PDR

 
barbados
1390894.  Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:17 am Reply with quote

I donít think it is important to the majority of people the voted remain, it also wasnít important to the majority of people that voted to leave.
The only people it does seem important to are people with similar opinions to suze, hence the question.

 
tetsabb
1390895.  Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:23 am Reply with quote

It did seem from posts I saw on FB and elsewhere that changing the colour of the passport cover was a big deal for a lot of leavers-- symbolic if Britsin's new independence and sticking it to the EU Man.

 

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