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Brexit (the EU Referendum debate)

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dr.bob
1270411.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:27 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with that, but how does Suze the Canadian get that treatment?


By striking a similar bi-lateral trade agreement with Canada as we have with the EU, I'd imagine.

barbados wrote:
That is not a bad idea however doesn't
<snip cnb's post>
mean we are changing the way that the EU members who currently get freedom to do as they please in the UK - something that is apparently not reciprocated - which is a discrimination based on nationality?


Certainly sounds like it.

I'd be interested to hear more about some of the things cnb mentions. In particular the "registration and permitting requirement on EU immigrants staying longer than a tourist visit (as most other EU countries do)." Does anyone have any details of the procedures required for a UK resident to register to work in another EU country?

As for making "the process of registering for an NI number very similar to the one that non-EU immigrants have to follow to get a work permit", isn't that effectively sneaking in a requirement for work permits (by another name) for EU citizens?

And when cnb says "A near-level playing field for everyone", he seems to be making the same mistake as you of ignoring the fact that UK residents still receive an advantage. Unless I've misunderstood and he's suggesting that UK residents should also follow some labyrinthine application procedure to get an NI number.

 
barbados
1270428.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 pm Reply with quote

So you are still happy to discriminate against some people just so long as they fit in with where you'd like them to come from.

 
Jenny
1270440.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:02 pm Reply with quote

I see Farage is now quoted in the Daily Telegraph as saying we need another Brexit referendum to settle the matter.

I find myself agreeing with Farage. I think I need to go and have a quiet lie-down.

 
'yorz
1270445.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:30 pm Reply with quote

Woodsman been picking the wrong mushrooms, Jenny?

 
cnb
1270457.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:06 pm Reply with quote

'yorz wrote:
The 'EU immigrants staying longer than a tourist visit'-bit doesn't make sense to me. Surely that should be 'EU-visitors', as immigrants by definition would need more than just a tourist visa.


I meant 'people from the EU who wish to stay long enough that they become residents, rather than visitors'.


barbados wrote:
That is not a bad idea however doesn't
Quote:
We could impose a registration and permitting requirement on EU immigrants staying longer than a tourist visit (as most other EU countries do). We could ask them to demonstrate at that point, and at renewal of that permit, that they can support themselves (as most other EU countries do). We could make the process of registering for an NI number very similar to the one that non-EU immigrants have to follow to get a work permit
mean we are changing the way that the EU members who currently get freedom to do as they please in the UK - something that is apparently not reciprocated - which is a discrimination based on nationality?

If it is ok to do (because it will discriminate on ability) - then why is dr.bob suggesting that the current method is better?


I'm pointing out that the UK could achieve something close to what you are suggesting - equality for EU and non-EU workers - without leaving the EU or negotiating any new deals. Yes, it would make things slightly more difficult for workers from EU countries, but it wouldn't remove any of their treaty rights. For anyone actually working, it should only be an extra form or two to fill in, if that.


dr.bob wrote:
I'd be interested to hear more about some of the things cnb mentions. In particular the "registration and permitting requirement on EU immigrants staying longer than a tourist visit (as most other EU countries do)." Does anyone have any details of the procedures required for a UK resident to register to work in another EU country?


As far as I know every EU country, including the UK, requires people to register for tax and social security numbers before they start work. Several countries also require immigrants to register their address with the authorities (though I suspect all those countries also have the same requirement for their own citizens. The one I know most aout - Germany - certainly applies it to Germans too). In the UK everyone eligible to vote is required to be on the electoral roll, so that requirement does already exist in the UK, for citizens and EU immigrants alike.

dr.bob wrote:

As for making "the process of registering for an NI number very similar to the one that non-EU immigrants have to follow to get a work permit", isn't that effectively sneaking in a requirement for work permits (by another name) for EU citizens?


As above, EU citizens already have to apply for tax and social security registration. The UK can't refuse them, but there's a process in place. What I'm suggesting is that the UK makes it equally easy for non-EU immigrants.

dr.bob wrote:

And when cnb says "A near-level playing field for everyone", he seems to be making the same mistake as you of ignoring the fact that UK residents still receive an advantage. Unless I've misunderstood and he's suggesting that UK residents should also follow some labyrinthine application procedure to get an NI number.


As above, I'm suggesting getting rid of labyrinthine procedures for everyone. You could make it more equal for Brits by making them apply for an NI number, but that's a pretty minor obstruction to getting a job. It doesn't seem worth the effort given the other advantages a Brit has which will never (or at least not in several generations) go away - there's always going to be a benefit to growing up in the same culture, language, education system etc.

As has been noted by others, the playing field is never going to be completely level however simple the immigration bureaucracy becomes - there will always be an advantage for people who had better education, the funds to travel etc. Were immigration for non-EU folks opened up as I suggest, there are probably some workplaces in the UK where a white South African would have a better chance of being employed than a black Brit.

 
barbados
1270461.  Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:23 pm Reply with quote

One factor that you will never get rid of is the effect of Alfred E Neuman's post, However hard you try, for a job in the UK I will always have an advantage, much in the same way that he would have an advantage relating to a job in South Africa - and that is I live in the UK, and as long as I'm not getting on a train, it will always be cheaper for me to attend the interview.

 
dr.bob
1270501.  Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:09 am Reply with quote

barbados wrote:
So you are still happy to discriminate against some people just so long as they fit in with where you'd like them to come from.


I'm not sure which part of my post this is a reply to, so it's hard for me to respond to it.

 
dr.bob
1270502.  Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 am Reply with quote

cnb wrote:
As far as I know every EU country, including the UK, requires people to register for tax and social security numbers before they start work.


This is true for immigrants and nationals, so it's nothing to do with immigration per se.

cnb wrote:
Several countries also require immigrants to register their address with the authorities


As you point out, this also applies to residents so, again, is not a matter of immigration.

cnb wrote:
As above, EU citizens already have to apply for tax and social security registration. The UK can't refuse them, but there's a process in place. What I'm suggesting is that the UK makes it equally easy for non-EU immigrants.


I think I understand. You're proposing removing the restrictions on non-EU workers to make it as easy for them to work here as EU workers (who currently enjoy full rights to work here).

That seems to be more in line with what I've been suggesting (opening the doors to more countries) than what barbados has been suggesting (imposing the same restrictions on EU workers as currently apply to non-EU workers)

cnb wrote:
As has been noted by others, the playing field is never going to be completely level however simple the immigration bureaucracy becomes - there will always be an advantage for people who had better education, the funds to travel etc.


That's very true. However, by removing the immigration bureaucracy, you would then end up with a situation whereby people are picked for jobs based on their ability rather than the country they come from. This is something barbados claims to be in favour of.

 
suze
1270707.  Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:43 pm Reply with quote

Meanwhile, let's talk once again about the ever-increasing shambles that is UKIP.

It's struggled a bit to find a leader whenever Farage has decided to let someone else have a go. In three separate terms he has been leader for ten of the last twelve years, while the party has somehow gotten through six in the other two of those years. And it's now looking as if it might need to find itself yet another, with some news providers reporting that Henry Bolton - who only became leader at the end of September - will resign within the next 24 hours.

That's mostly to do with his girlfriend, a woman named Jo Marney. When Mr Bolton became the leader he was married to a Russian woman, and he also has a child from an earlier relationship with a Danish woman. Foreign partners might seem to run counter to UKIP thinking, but Farage favours them too and so all was well.

Until, that is, he dumped his wife and took up with an English woman (from Kent, as is usual with UKIP members). Her name is Jo, she is younger than his oldest daughter, and Mr Bolton has apparently moved in to the house she shares with her mom.

Jo describes herself as a model, although "wannabe model" might be more accurate because no British publication had ever used photos of her half dressed before she took up with Mr Bolton. I imagine she'll be in the next season of I'm a Celebrity ...

Jo is also exceptionally racist, and is on record variously describing Meghan Markle as "a negro" (and noting that she wouldn't "do" a person of such ethnicity), "ugly", "a scrubber", "a yank", "a twat", and a "dumb" little person with a "tiny brain". Apparently Ms Markle's incorporation into the royal family leaves Britain just one step away from having a Muslim PM, which would apparently be the end of civilization as we know it.

Even the Daily Mail finds Jo offensive, and she has been suspended from membership of UKIP. I didn't see it, but according to the BBC website the party chairman Paul Oakden told Andrew Neil that Mr Bolton probably needs either to dump her or to resign, although he used slightly more diplomatic words in saying so.

If I were that chairman, I'd probably be speaking to Farage about now, and asking him to stand for the leadership yet again with a single policy: if elected, to dissolve the party.

 
dr.bob
1270753.  Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:48 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
It's struggled a bit to find a leader whenever Farage has decided to let someone else have a go. In three separate terms he has been leader for ten of the last twelve years, while the party has somehow gotten through six in the other two of those years. And it's now looking as if it might need to find itself yet another, with some news providers reporting that Henry Bolton - who only became leader at the end of September - will resign within the next 24 hours.


According the the Mail on Sunday's reporting of the situation, Ms Marney started her relationship with Mr Bolton "just before christmas". It also states that the offensive texts were sent "three weeks before starting her relationship with Mr Bolton" which, by my reckoning, means she sent them around the start of December.

Which makes me wonder why the texts were leaked to the press right about now. I'm not usually a big fan of conspiracy theories, but it does seem awfully convenient that Mr Bolton has been put in a politically difficult situation only a day or two after Mr Farage has popped up all over our news media once more like an unwanted coldsore.

suze wrote:
If I were that chairman, I'd probably be speaking to Farage about now, and asking him to stand for the leadership yet again with a single policy: if elected, to dissolve the party.


I think it's highly likely that he will stand for the leadership yet again. However, with all his recent talk about a second referendum and accusing the Leave campaign of stopping campaigning, I highly doubt he'll be seeking to dissolve the party.

Part of me wonders whether he was peeved to have been overlooked in the New Year honours list, and was previously planning to get a cushy income from signing in to the House of Lords in much the same way that he used to in the European Parliament.

 
Alexander Howard
1270763.  Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:25 am Reply with quote

Demographically or statistically, UKIP supporters are more likely to appreciate Carry-On films. This explains why they elect leaders who act as if they were in one. (Fill in appropriate quote here.)

According to the Beeb, Harry Bolton has just dumped his latest bed-warmer, which opens the way for her to get into the Big Brother House or wherever.

It's all very tawdry: can UKIP ever grow up to be like the big, established political parties? They have proper sex scandals.

 
crissdee
1270771.  Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:57 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
Demographically or statistically, UKIP supporters are more likely to appreciate Carry-On films. This explains why they elect leaders who act as if they were in one. ("Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it infamy!!!")


How's that?

 
suze
1270781.  Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:29 pm Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Which makes me wonder why the texts were leaked to the press right about now. I'm not usually a big fan of conspiracy theories, but it does seem awfully convenient that Mr Bolton has been put in a politically difficult situation only a day or two after Mr Farage has popped up all over our news media once more like an unwanted coldsore.


I had wondered about that. It's not entirely clear how the media came to know about these txts msgs, or why it chose now to report on them.

Personally I don't think it's Farage's doing though. He is bigger than UKIP and he knows that very well. Once the referendum had happened he said that was his lot and he would now retire from frontline politics, and I certainly got the impression that he was serious about wanting to retire to the country and spend more time in the pub.

If he's serious about returning to the front line, I expect him to do it from outside UKIP.


dr.bob wrote:
Part of me wonders whether he was peeved to have been overlooked in the New Year honours list, and was previously planning to get a cushy income from signing in to the House of Lords in much the same way that he used to in the European Parliament.


He's always said that he has no interest in a knighthood or a peerage. Whether that's actually true who can say, but I do have a slight suspicion that he's already turned down the offer of a peerage at least once - and therefore it is true.

David Cameron probably ought to have ennobled Farage at the end of 2014, as the easiest way to kick him into the long grass. Given that it didn't happen then, Theresa May ought to have done it at the end of 2016.

The idea will surely have occurred to both PMs, but until they are dead we will probably not know whether they balked at it, or whether they did make the offer but Farage declined it. All the same, my single Zimbabwean dollar favours the latter notion.


Alexander Howard wrote:
According to the Beeb, Harry Bolton has just dumped his latest bed-warmer, which opens the way for her to get into the Big Brother House or wherever.


It is reported that he has indeed dumped her, although allow me to be slightly skeptical. Will that be the sort of "dumped" which means that he will ever after refer to her as "Psycho bitch of an ex from Hell", or the sort of dumped that occurred as between Prince Andrew and Sarah, Duchess of York, and as between Tessa Jowell and David Mills? When he has finished his work for today, will he be parking his car in a layby, and walking a mile across a muddy field in order to be admitted to Ms Marney's mom's house via the back door?

But if he really has finished with her, etiquette suggests that she should return her Christmas present from him. It is alleged to have been a UKIP-themed iPhone cover (£7.99 from a well known South American river) - although there are rumours that he might have bought her the phone to go in it as well, which I suppose makes a bit of a difference!

 
dr.bob
1270836.  Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:33 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
If he's serious about returning to the front line, I expect him to do it from outside UKIP.


How?

As leader of UKIP he could claim to be the head of a political party with (arguably) lots of support from the british public.

I can't see any other party wanting to include him in the fold, and on his own he's just an annoying talking head with no pretence to any power.

 
suze
1270879.  Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:37 pm Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
As leader of UKIP he could claim to be the head of a political party with (arguably) lots of support from the british public.


At one time he absolutely could make that claim, but no longer. If we leave Farage aside, UKIP is by now an utter shambles of a party.

If you asked one hundred people on a non-Kent High Street to name the current leader, I doubt you'd find three who could do it. Ask those one hundred people to name a single member who is not Farage, and I doubt that half of them could. (You might get a few name Douglas Carswell - but he is no longer a member. Neither are Diane James, Mark Reckless, or Geoffrey Boycott.)

An annoying talking head with no pretence to any power is actually all that Farage has ever been, much as Mr Cameron apparently considered him a credible future Prime Minister at one point. If he didn't consider Farage to be that thing, we'd never have had the referendum.

But outside UKIP, Farage would at least be his own annoying talking head, and wouldn't need to apologize constantly for the rabble beneath him. The government wouldn't need to take any notice of him, but if truth be told it never did.

As for another party accepting him into membership, are we completely sure that the Conservative Party wouldn't? It's sort of taken Mark Reckless back, and it retains Norman Tebbit - both of whom are far more of an embarrassment than Farage would ever be.

 

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