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The Interminably Long Race To '20, Election or Impeachment

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Who will win?
Jeb!
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Hillary
20%
 20%  [ 5 ]
Trump
16%
 16%  [ 4 ]
Sanders
20%
 20%  [ 5 ]
Chafee
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Webb
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Cruz
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Huckabee
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Who Cares!
36%
 36%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 25

dr.bob
1347503.  Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 am Reply with quote

I would imagine that's one of the "benefits" of embracing free-market economics.

 
PDR
1347504.  Wed May 06, 2020 9:14 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Sunrise tomorrow in Fray Bentos is at 0731 local.


To get there in time would be pie in the sky. I was thinking more the next dawn in Longyearbyen.

PDR

 
Alexander Howard
1347505.  Wed May 06, 2020 9:16 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
That's a good point. Healthcare systems founded on socialist principles, such as we have here in the UK, generally do a much better job when measured against basic metrics of healthcare outcomes, such as infant mortality, compared with countries with healthcare systems run along free-market lines, such as the USA.


I think you've missed what socialism is. It is not "social security". It is state control of the means of production and exchange and of the labour force, in accordance with the ideas of Karl Marx. It has everywhere been a failure and when put into effect as the state system has resulted in mass starvation, violent oppression of opposition and frequently mass slaughter. If you want to see it in action, most of the examples are gone, mercifully, but you could visit Venezuela. If you are lauding basic social security, that is not socialism. You need another word for that.

 
cornixt
1347511.  Wed May 06, 2020 10:01 am Reply with quote

This has gone from weird to just plain dumb.

 
bobwilson
1347517.  Wed May 06, 2020 10:24 am Reply with quote

Is this the room for the Tooting Popular Front or are we in the Peoples Popular Front for Tooting here?

 
bobwilson
1347518.  Wed May 06, 2020 10:27 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
...............

You personally may oppose those measures for all I know, but it was your preferred political party - led by a fellow called Alexander, much as he prefers to use a bizarre middle name - which imposed them........................

The other is Sweden, which is thus the only country in Europe currently to have a free market economy. And yet, the land of Abba and Volvo takes socialism really quite seriously, and has never allowed itself to be ruled by an Alexander.

Will no one rid me of these turbulent Alexanders? From where I'm sitting, they're a lot more worrying than the Justins.


My goodness suze, I would NOT want to be a pupil in your class who got on the wrong side of you!!!

 
ali
1347520.  Wed May 06, 2020 10:33 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
I think you've missed what socialism is. It is not "social security". It is state control of the means of production and exchange and of the labour force, in accordance with the ideas of Karl Marx. It has everywhere been a failure and when put into effect as the state system has resulted in mass starvation, violent oppression of opposition and frequently mass slaughter. If you want to see it in action, most of the examples are gone, mercifully, but you could visit Venezuela. If you are lauding basic social security, that is not socialism. You need another word for that.



Ah, the Humpty-Dumpty Principle in action.

 
suze
1347524.  Wed May 06, 2020 11:03 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
If you are lauding basic social security, that is not socialism. You need another word for that.


Rather a lot of Americans believe that the word you seek is "communism". Convince them that (for instance) the existence of the NHS is not a a manifestation of communism, and maybe there's a debate to be had. Until then ...


bobwilson wrote:
My goodness suze, I would NOT want to be a pupil in your class who got on the wrong side of you!!!


Rather few do it twice ...

 
Prof Wind Up Merchant
1347594.  Thu May 07, 2020 6:33 am Reply with quote

Joe Biden has an excellent opportunity to defeat Trump in November. This Virus outbreak should embolden him to come up with a better balanced view about recovering the US economy and reducing the spread of the virus. If he can't come up with a campaign strategy to defeat Trump then I dispair. He has just less than 6 months to do it.

 
dr.bob
1347619.  Thu May 07, 2020 9:45 am Reply with quote

Alexander Howard wrote:
I think you've missed what socialism is.


No, not really.

Alexander Howard wrote:
It is not "social security".


This absolutely true.

Alexander Howard wrote:
It is state control of the means of production and exchange and of the labour force, in accordance with the ideas of Karl Marx.


This is not quite true. You are aware that socialism pre-dates Marx, right?

Alexander Howard wrote:
It has everywhere been a failure and when put into effect as the state system has resulted in mass starvation, violent oppression of opposition and frequently mass slaughter.


I'm not sure that pure socialism has ever been put into effect as the state system any more than pure capitalism has.

Alexander Howard wrote:
If you are lauding basic social security, that is not socialism. You need another word for that.


I'm not lauding basic social security: I'm lauding the NHS.

Social security is defined as a system whereby the government pays money to people who don't have enough of their own. That describes more closely something like the federal subsidies paid to people in the US under Obamacare.

A system like the NHS where the government owns the buildings (capitalist PPE initiatives notwithstanding), employs the workforce, funds vital research and drugs trials, and provides a service free at the point of delivery to anyone who needs it much more closely resembles core socialist principles.

 
tetsabb
1347636.  Thu May 07, 2020 12:26 pm Reply with quote

Capitalist PFI, I think you mean!

 
dr.bob
1347679.  Fri May 08, 2020 3:50 am Reply with quote

Ha! Yes, that's hilarious. Obviously that TLA has burrowed so deep into my subconscious that it's leaking out everywhere.

Thanks for the correction :)

 
Prof Wind Up Merchant
1347682.  Fri May 08, 2020 4:29 am Reply with quote

I look forward to 20th January 2025.

 
barbados
1347688.  Fri May 08, 2020 4:39 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
Ha! Yes, that's hilarious. Obviously that TLA has burrowed so deep into my subconscious that it's leaking out everywhere.

Thanks for the correction :)

I think you were both correct.
PFI (Private Finance Initiative) is a form of PPE (Private Public Enterprise)
That's the problem with TLAs - they have different meanings .

 
dr.bob
1347692.  Fri May 08, 2020 5:00 am Reply with quote

Of course! That's what I meant all along.

Move along, nothing to see here :-D

 

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