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Religion, god, and gods.

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dr.bob
1114646.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:10 am Reply with quote

Zziggy wrote:
Ray Dodds wrote:
The star in the east was Sirius and the Three Kings, as they were called, are the three stars that make up Orion's belt. The only time of the year when all line up together is on the 25th Dec.

You what? I'm ... fairly certain stars don't move (from our point of view) with respect to each other. That's why the "celestial sphere" of stars was such a popular idea for so long.


Yeah, that struck me as a rather odd thing to say. Sirius and the three stars of Orion's belt don't change their position in the sky relative to each other (at least, not perceptibly by human standards), so they would always "line up together".

Mind you, Ray also said:

Ray Dodds wrote:
the glif for Virgo is a stylized 'M' which might also explain why so many other gods have had virgin mothers with names beginning with the letter 'M'.


I'm not sure what his definition of "so many other" is but, according to this list I found online, the gods that had virgin mothers whose names began with 'M' are:

Buddha (Maya)
Hesus of the Druids (Mayence) (though this one must be suspect given how little we know about Druids)
Sakia (Maia)
Xaca of China (Maia)

So apparently 4, one of which is highly questionable, and two of which I've never heard of before, counts as "so many".

Compare this with the list of gods born of a virgin whose mother's name did not start with an 'M':

Bacchus (Semele)
Chrishna (Devaci)
Ghengis Khan (Hoelun)
Hercules (Prudence)
Mars (Juno)
Osiris (Nut)
Pythagoras (Pythais)
Quecalcoatle (Sochiquetzal)
Vulcan (Juno again)
Zeus (Rhea)
Zoroaster (Dughdova)

and a bunch I've never heard of before:

Alcides (Alcmene)
Citlaltonac (Chimalma)
Huitzilopochtli of the Toltec (Coatlicue)
Huns (Eschylus)
Julius (Cronis Celestine)
Quexalcote (Chimalman)
Zunis (Celestine)

 
AlmondFacialBar
1114648.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:20 am Reply with quote

tetsabb wrote:
suze wrote
Quote:
A graffito suggesting the Romans might perhaps consider going home would most likely have been written in Greek.

Google translate offers this
Ρωμαίους να πάει στο σπίτι


I hate to say it, but methinks you need a conjugation lesson. That's third person plural present indicative.


:-)

AlmondFacialBar

 
tetsabb
1114725.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:19 pm Reply with quote

"These people called Romanes go the 'ouse"?

I just put words into google translate and cut and pasted.

 
suze
1114733.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:33 pm Reply with quote

Ray Dodds wrote:
The glif for Virgo is a stylized 'M' which might also explain why so many other gods have had virgin mothers with names beginning with the letter 'M'.


I'd missed this bit before, so thanks to dr.bob for commenting on it.

He has shown that there are plenty of gods with virgin mothers who do not have names in <M>, but there is in any case a well understood reason why words to do with motherhood often do start with that sound. The word for mother has /m/ as its first consonant in every major language except Finnish and Japanese, and indeed it used to in Finnish.

In a word, the reason is boobs. If you are in a position to do so, examine what the mouth does when it attaches to the breast for feeding purposes. You'll find that it does almost exactly the same things that it does in making the /m/ sound. A baby's first consonant sound is /m/ more often than it's anything else, and the usual explanation for this is that the baby is mimicking being fed at the breast*. It is then suggested that the word root /ma/ = "breast" is hence onomatopeic, and the various words to do with motherhood are derived from it.


* It is not always /m/. /b/ is reasonably common too, and is usually the second consonant sound of babies who start with /m/. Less common, but /k/, /g/, /d/, and the "raspberry" sound (whose IPA symbol cannot be shown here for technical reasons) are not unknown; anything else is extremely rare.

This may cause you to wonder whether the first consonant sound is more often /m/ in babies who have been breast fed than in babies who haven't. That's a very good and as yet unresolved question; there is - at the very least - a PhD waiting for anyone who can answer it.

 
CharliesDragon
1114776.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:29 pm Reply with quote

Wouldn't a baby make about the same mouthshape for bottle-feeding as with breast-feeding?

 
suze
1114807.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:09 pm Reply with quote

The honest answer to that is "I don't know", having never had a baby. But I do know that some pediatricians are concerned that bottle feeding can in some instances damage the soft palate, which suggests to me that there is a difference.

What that difference is, maybe one of the mothers among us can explain.

 
'yorz
1114813.  Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:38 pm Reply with quote

Not having breastfed myself either, but thinking about the actual act, I'd say that there is a difference: the baby who clamps his/her mouth around the nipple and begins to suck, will use the muscles of their lips much more than with a bottle teat, that will go into the mouth quite a bit in comparison, and the tongue will do most of the work.

Feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my rear.

 
Spud McLaren
1114899.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:31 am Reply with quote

dr.bob wrote:
...the gods that had virgin mothers whose names began with 'M' are:

Buddha (Maya)
Hesus of the Druids (Mayence) (though this one must be suspect given how little we know about Druids)
Sakia (Maia)
Xaca of China (Maia)

So apparently 4, one of which is highly questionable, and two of which I've never heard of before, counts as "so many".
[italics mine]

Two questionable, pedantically speaking, since the Buddha, although revered by many, is/was technically not a god. I'm aware that the Tibetan school seems to treat him as such, but as ever I think it's a more complex explanation than just that.

 
Zziggy
1114901.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:35 am Reply with quote

I too felt a bit confused by
dr.bob wrote:
Ghengis Khan (Hoelun)
...
Pythagoras (Pythais)

 
Jenny
1114998.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:00 pm Reply with quote

CharliesDragon wrote:
Wouldn't a baby make about the same mouthshape for bottle-feeding as with breast-feeding?


Actually, no. The two actions (suckling at a breast and sucking on a bottle) do use different sets of muscles.

To suckle effectively at a breast, the baby must have its mouth quite wide open, and essentially use its jaw muscles. To suck at a bottle, it mainly uses its cheek muscles.

To test this out for yourself, try this exercise: make your hand into a fist, imagine it is a large and delicious toffee apple, and try and get as much of it into your mouth as possible and suck on it. Feel what muscles you are using - you should feel it mainly at the hinge of your jaw, between the eye and the ear. Next, try sucking your thumb. You'll feel the muscles in your cheeks working much harder than the muscles at the top of the jaw.

One of the most common causes of breastfeeding problems in the form of sore nipples for the mother is when the baby doesn't have its mouth wide enough open or is held in a way where it has to turn its head to suckle (try putting your fist in your mouth and sucking on it when your head is turned to one side, and you'll find it's quite uncomfortable.)

I did voluntary work as a breastfeeding counsellor for the NCT and also breastfed my own three children, so I have seen a lot of babies being breastfed.

 
dr.bob
1114999.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:01 pm Reply with quote

As it says here, the pythagorean school of philosophy "was every bit as much a religion as a school of mathematics."

If you have enough followers, you can quickly become a god. Just ask L. Ron Hubbard :)

 
Zziggy
1115004.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:15 pm Reply with quote

To be fair, I do know about the craziness of the Pythagoreans and how they thought he could travel through time and commune with the dead and had a golden thigh and everything. After all, Hippasus was lynched for heresy according to the legend.

I guess it was just a bit weird because I know Pythagoras was a real person and therefore almost certainly wasn't born of a virgin (as opposed to the others who as far as I know weren't necessarily real people).

 
PDR
1115008.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:36 pm Reply with quote

suze wrote:
Officers from Rome would know Latin, and their emails to Rome would have been in Latin,


Oh come on Suze - email didn't extend to the british isles until Edward 1st's time. They'd have been using Telex, as you well know.

Quote:

He left school with GCSEs and got a job,


O-levels (GCEs) in those days, shirley?

PDR

 
CharliesDragon
1115067.  Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:54 pm Reply with quote

Jenny wrote:
CharliesDragon wrote:
Wouldn't a baby make about the same mouthshape for bottle-feeding as with breast-feeding?


Actually, no. The two actions (suckling at a breast and sucking on a bottle) do use different sets of muscles.

To suckle effectively at a breast, the baby must have its mouth quite wide open, and essentially use its jaw muscles. To suck at a bottle, it mainly uses its cheek muscles.

To test this out for yourself, try this exercise: make your hand into a fist, imagine it is a large and delicious toffee apple, and try and get as much of it into your mouth as possible and suck on it. Feel what muscles you are using - you should feel it mainly at the hinge of your jaw, between the eye and the ear. Next, try sucking your thumb. You'll feel the muscles in your cheeks working much harder than the muscles at the top of the jaw.

One of the most common causes of breastfeeding problems in the form of sore nipples for the mother is when the baby doesn't have its mouth wide enough open or is held in a way where it has to turn its head to suckle (try putting your fist in your mouth and sucking on it when your head is turned to one side, and you'll find it's quite uncomfortable.)

I did voluntary work as a breastfeeding counsellor for the NCT and also breastfed my own three children, so I have seen a lot of babies being breastfed.


Then my next question will be how that translates into the first sounds the baby might make on purpose.

Not that it matters in terms of gods/well-known people born of virgins with or without names starting with M. Bottle-feeding didn't exist back then.

 
gacyclops
1125068.  Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:53 pm Reply with quote

The "B" series of QI didn't include a discussion of breast feeding, did it? The dream panel for that would have been Sandy Toskvig, Jo Brand and Reginald D Hunter, IMHO

 

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