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Peeeeeteeeee
1126006.  Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:51 pm Reply with quote

I had a look at that Encyclopedia Britannica's website. It has about as much evidence as me. So maybe it is right. Although even though I can't find my original source of evidence, it was not based on legend.

I guess we can only guess until we find evidence.

 
'yorz
1126021.  Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:14 am Reply with quote

suze wrote:
There are several thousand instances of the haka on YouTube, so watch as many you like!

Of course. Watched many of them over time. I just had the impression there was something special about this particular occasion.

suze wrote:
I don't think we have any NZers among our currently active membership, which is a shame because I have a question for them. Half a dozen of any given All Black team are white guys of Scottish descent.
[...] Are those guys just a bit uncomfortable about doing a Māori war dance at the start of the game?

Good question. I often thought along similar lines. Here's hoping Jumper makes a flying visit.

 
Zziggy
1126040.  Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:35 am Reply with quote

Maybe they're not that squeamish about it since this was their 1932 team:



and their 1906 team (the first to tour outside Australasia and who wiped the floor with everyone they came into contact with - "Their opening game was against Devon on 16 September 1905 whom they defeated 554. Such was the surprise that some newspapers in Britain printed that Devon had scored 55 points and not the All Blacks."):



...although apparently the very first team, the "Natives" of 1888-9, only had 4 non-Maōri players. They performed a haka against Surrey in their first match on 3rd October 1888, but not the one we are used to now, which is Ka Mate. This was first used in 1906:

"Ka Mate"

Leader: Ringa pakia! / Slap the hands against the thighs!
Uma tiraha! / Puff out the chest.
Turi whatia! / Bend the knees!
Hope whai ake! / Let the hips follow!
Waewae takahia kia kino! / Stomp the feet as hard as you can!
Leader: Ka mate, ka mate / I die, I die,
Team: Ka ora' Ka ora' / I live, I live
Leader: Ka mate, ka mate / I die, I die,
Team: Ka ora Ka ora " / I live, I live,
All: Tēnei te tangata pūhuruhuru/This is the hairy man
Nāna i tiki mai whakawhiti te rā / ...Who caused the sun to shine again for me
A Upane! Ka Upane! / Up the ladder, Up the ladder
A Upane Kaupane" / Up to the top
Whiti te rā,! / The sun shines!
Hī! / Rise!

Apparently composed by Te Rauparaha of the Ngāti Toa tribe to describe a lucky escape from the enemy Ngāti Maniapoto and Waikato tribes. He hid in a food store and upon climbing out was meet by the friendly chief Te Whareangi. Who apparently was hairy.

However, Ka Mate is not used at every game, and I like the one they chose in 1903 against Australia:

Tena koe, Kangaroo / How are you, Kangaroo!
Tupoto koe, Kangaroo! / You look out, Kangaroo!
Niu Tireni tenei haere nei. / New Zealand is invading you
Au Au Aue a! / Woe woe woe to you!

Source is all Wikipedia, nothing more. (I tried to format the lyrics nicely so they would be easy to read but apparently the website doesn't like that. Sorry!)

 
Zziggy
1126078.  Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:52 am Reply with quote

In 1956 the Māori All-Blacks (the team made solely of Māori players with verified lineage*) lost to the Springboks 37-0.

It was revealed in 2010 that this was because the government minister in charge of Māori affairs told the team to lose "for the future of rugby".

Moreover, despite some of NZ's best players being Māori, they were excluded from touring SA for the best part of the twentieth century due to the apartheid regime forbidding people of different races playing sports together.


*although apparently in the past they let in anybody who "looked Māori".


Last edited by Zziggy on Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total

 
Zziggy
1126079.  Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:55 am Reply with quote



A team photo of the New Zealand Natives of 1888-9.

 
suze
1126104.  Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:22 am Reply with quote

Some of those guys don't look especially Māori!

Mind you, this need not mean that they're actually white guys pretending. Last summer I encountered a rather charming fellow called Dan Christian, who is on the fringes of the Australian cricket team.

If you met Mr Christian without knowing who he was, you'd perceive him as a white man. He gets that from his Scottish mother; his father is half-blood Aborigine and Mr Christian is only the second Aborigine ever to play cricket for Australia.

 
spinyourmeat
1126929.  Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:00 pm Reply with quote

Peeeeeteeeee wrote:
I had a look at that Encyclopedia Britannica's website. It has about as much evidence as me. So maybe it is right. Although even though I can't find my original source of evidence, it was not based on legend.

I guess we can only guess until we find evidence.



I'm from New Zealand, and registered to reply to you.

Here's the information you need -

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/ideas-of-maori-origins

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/kumara

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/10/23/3616026.htm

I'm part Maori (a very dilute part, but enough for me to have some interest in their origins) - the Maori are descended from Polynesian explorers who migrated in waves south and east in stages around the 13th century. Maori legend refers to an apocryphal homeland named 'Hawaiiki', an island never geographically pinned down but sounding similar to Hawaii, while Maori are genetically similar to Hawaiian indigenous peoples. It's unlikely however they came directly from Hawaii, most likely a slow staged expansion through South-East Asia and the Pacific Islands.

I linked the kumara article as a point of interest. The kumara is a widely cultivated variety of sweet potato, grown by the Maori for hundreds of years. Because the sweet potato is native to South America, it's widespread presence coupled with the fact that the Polynesian peoples are exceedingly skilled navigators and sailors suggest that at some point the Maori people interacted with South American peoples, perhaps trading with them.

This article from 2012 uses DNA evidence to prove that Maori have definite East Polynesian genetic markers.

Quote:

"Now that we have identified specific markers in the mitochondrial genome of these individuals we can start to look for these markers in East Polynesian populations and perhaps identify an island or islands where we also find these mutations."

 
'yorz
1126938.  Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:23 am Reply with quote

Hi, spinyourmeat - welcome and thanks for your explanation :-)
Why don't you hang around a bit longer?
And how on earth did you pick your moniker?

 
Peeeeeteeeee
1130303.  Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:31 pm Reply with quote

You will also find that the DNA evidence points to the fact that Maori is its own race. The fact that it settled in New Zealand so recently and that Maori's are not found anywhere else in the world (as a race) means they either left another place as an entire race and did not return, left somewhere else and died out in there previous country/island or breed with other races to start a new race in New Zealand. There has been no evidence found anywhere else in the world yet to back up the first two.

 
Peeeeeteeeee
1130304.  Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:34 pm Reply with quote

Oh, and by the way suze. I am from New Zealand and have been here for a while.

 
Alfred E Neuman
1130312.  Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:45 am Reply with quote

Peeeeeteeeee wrote:
Oh, and by the way suze. I am from New Zealand and have been here for a while.


Yes, but you make huge sweeping statements, and when asked to back them up with references, you get upset. We like learning new stuff, but we like to know that what we're learning has some basis in facts.

 
Zebra57
1130473.  Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:30 am Reply with quote

The most incredible haka I have seen is the one performed by the NZ Ice Hockey team.

 
gruff5
1130480.  Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:14 am Reply with quote

Saw a skeleton of a giant Moa bird at the NHM last week. Modern man is no more destructive in character than original man, just we have more powerful technology now.

 
'yorz
1130493.  Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:33 am Reply with quote

Zebra57 wrote:
The most incredible haka I have seen is the one performed by the NZ Ice Hockey team.

I guess it's the enclosed accoustics that make it more impressive than the open air ones.

 
Zziggy
1130503.  Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:02 am Reply with quote

Haka On Ice? I'd watch that.

 

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