View previous topic | View next topic

National anthem

Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next

Frederick The Monk
58267.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:51 am Reply with quote

MatC wrote:
Does anybody talk about the Kingdom of Scotland?


I used to, but I stopped in 1707.

 
Flash
58268.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:51 am Reply with quote

I've been searching for this but can't find it: I'm sure there was a post recently in which someone produced evidence to the effect that this business about Scots and Welshmen wishing to be distinguished from the English was unknown before the 1930s, until which time the word 'English' was used in the same way that 'British' is now. One of the bits of evidence for this was that Disraeli (I think) signed a treaty as 'Prime Minister of England'. Can anyone remember where this post was?

There's a thread called 'How do you know you're British?' on the outer board, where someone who lives in France says that when he has to fill in a form which asks for his nationality he's required to put 'Anglais'.

And dr bob says this:
Quote:
Some countries (including the US until relatively recently, I believe) insist that you can only become a naturalised citizen if you relinquish your existing nationality. However it seems that there was a turbulent period a while ago where people in ex-colonies were being forced to relinquish their British nationality against their will. For this reason, parliament passed a law that said it was impossible to relinquish British nationality.

post 52262 (no idea if that's accurate, though he is generally thoughtful poster)

 
MatC
58276.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:20 am Reply with quote

Correct about US; I have a friend who lived in UK 30 years, but couldn't become UK citizen until recently because he didn't want to give up his native US ctizenship. The US now allows dual citizenship.

The Britain/England thing - no, I'm sure that's not true. For instance, Thomas Paine in 1776 refers to the British Empire (though also uses England and Britain interchangeably and non-interchangeably); also, there were distinctly Scottish (for instance) regional trades unions, parties, co-ops and so on during the 19th century. There are plenty of examples everywhere of Scottish and Welsh (and Irish, obviously, in those days) people identifying themselves as such prior to the 1930s!

 
Frederick The Monk
58277.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:21 am Reply with quote

It used to be true. This from the Home Office Immigration and Nationality Directorate Policy Instructions:
Quote:
2. History of dual nationality
2.1 Prior to 1870, British subjects could not divest themselves of their nationality in any circumstances. However, in addition to introducing provision for renunciation of British subject status, the Naturalization Act 1870 provided that British subjects would be deemed to have lost that status automatically if they voluntarily naturalized in a foreign country. If a foreign man was married to a British subject at that time, his wife would be deemed to have acquired his new nationality - whether or not she had - and as a result, many women effectively became stateless. The same applied, potentially, to his children who were resident in that foreign country.

 
Flash
58279.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:23 am Reply with quote

Well, I can't find it so I guess I must have been dreaming. Disraeli is referred to as Prime Minister of England in the Treaty of Berlin (1878), though.

 
MatC
58291.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:57 am Reply with quote

Flash wrote:
Disraeli is referred to as Prime Minister of England in the Treaty of Berlin (1878), though.


Really? That is interesting - it seems very casual, since the PM takes his authority from the Monarch, and Victoria was, surely, not “Queen of England,” but something like “Queen of Great Britain and Dominions over the Seas, Empress of India” etc. (Possible question: Who is the Queen of England? Forfeit for Elizabeth II; she is Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; England doesn’t have a head of state, because it isn't a state.)

If we have any reason for wishing to annul the Treaty of Berlin (1878), I wonder if we could use that as a legal technicality; that it was signed by someone who did not, constitutionally, exist?

 
Flash
58310.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:22 am Reply with quote

Does anyone know which sports we compete in as GB and which as England / Scotland etc without looking it up?

Olympics are GB; football, rugby, cricket are England etc. Is there a Scottish cricket team? If not and there's a really good cricketer who's Scottish, who does he play for?

Does any other country have comparable issues? Did the breakup of entities such as the USSR, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia mean a proliferation of national teams, or were they already in play before the political world followed the sports world?

I know nothing about sport, you see.

 
MatC
58314.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:36 am Reply with quote

Gavin Hamilton used to play for Scotland and Yorkshire at cricket; he later played for England. He was very successful with Scotland; not very with England. There’s a former Irish international who becomes eligible via residence to play for England any day now, and is expected to do so.

The basic rule of thumb is that in those sports and events which were first codified in Britain (which is nearly all of them), we have teams for each British “nation”. In those which were organised by foreigners - such as the Olympics - we’re only allowed one.

In most of the really big sports - cricket, rugby, football and so on - the reason we have separate teams is presumably that we were at first the only people who played them, so we had to play amid ourselves: England vs. Scotland, and so on.

Cricket is a slight anomaly, though; the England cricket team is selected from the English cricketing counties, one of which is, ah, Welsh. Thus Welsh players play for England (although in recent years there have been a few England vs. Wales one day games, just to cause confusion).

The body that runs cricket in England and Wales is correctly the England and Wales Cricket Board - thought it’s abbreviated to ECB, not EWCB. (Except by extreme anti-balkanisation pedants like me).

 
MatC
58315.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:38 am Reply with quote

Yes, the break-up of the USSR did indeed lead to a proliferation - the opening ceremony of the Olympics now lasts forever, instead of only seeming to.

It’s also the reason, I believe, why the Eurovision Song Contest now has relegation and promotion - it simply can’t fit in all the European nations in a single night of glorious entertainment.

 
Flash
58317.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:39 am Reply with quote

So can you play cricket for England if you're an Australian national who plays for, say, Kent?

 
MatC
58318.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:40 am Reply with quote

Flash wrote:
I know nothing about sport, you see.


So you’re chairman of the ECB, are you?

 
eggshaped
58319.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:44 am Reply with quote

Yes, and there is a Scotland cricket team, they play in the Cricket World Cup.

The breakup of the USSR & Yugoslavia did lead to a great number of new football teams at least. Croatians & Bosnians would have been eligable to play for Yugoslavia before the breakup, though realistically most players were of Croatian descent.

Similarly with the USSR, The Ukraine and Russia are now the strongest teams, though The Azeri, Latvia, Lithuania etc all now have teams affiliated with UEFA.

 
MatC
58323.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:51 am Reply with quote

Flash wrote:
So can you play cricket for England if you're an Australian national who plays for, say, Kent?


No, is the simple answer - but changing sporting nationality, in almost all sports, is usually a fairly simple matter of not having played for the old country for a certain time, and of having resided in the new country for a certain time (to the dismay of many traditionalists). I think this is probably too complicated to get into in any depth ... but if you google Kolpak Ruling you will learn about the EU’s villainous involvement in one aspect of the matter.

Didn’t Ireland put out a football team in the world cup a few years ago which consisted almost entirely of Englishmen with Irish ancestors?

Then there was Zola Budd, of course.

 
Flash
58327.  Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:00 am Reply with quote

This is a topic which we could nudge them towards - one where the panellists are likely to know more than Stephen. Might be nice to let him say, for once, "I'm asking 'cause I wanna know".

 
MatC
62069.  Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:08 am Reply with quote

The Independent Magazine 25 March 2006 p.19 carries a picture of “The Grand Union Flag,” the first flag of the USA, which consists of a Union Flag and the Stripes; the design has written on it “Dessine par Benjamin Franklin.”

 

Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next

All times are GMT - 5 Hours


Display posts from previous:   

Search Search Forums

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group